Vortex Tube

[sebosfato]

Does anyone have ever heard of vortex tube, where you can create very high temperature on one side and under 0° temperature on the other side? The cold part pass in the middle of the vortex just like a twister.

Any info?

Could it work as a heat pump?

[Jetijs]

Vortex tube - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It works, but is not very efficient, about 20% or so. I have a small commercial tube, it needs lots of pressure to work properly. The cold side can reach -12 degree Celsius and the hot side up to 80 degrees. But the cold air volume is very small. Anyway, interesting little thing.
Here is one of the sites you can get them commercially:
EXAIR: Industrial Spot Cooling Solutions using Vortex Tubes

[sebosfato]

Hello Jettis, i was taking a look on that site just now.

Could you explain how it works? What you used it for?

I came across this tech cause yesterday i went to the ecological fair and there was some guys presenting a motor witch runs on compressed air. They told me it has to do with this vortex technology.

The air enter the engine at 60°C and go out at -10°C they were showing the motor for the first time. They said you can make at least 150km with 24m3 cylinder with 150psig pressure...

They explained me it works because the air get into the engine and than its compressed, when it reach 10 bar inside the engine where the spark should fire they instead inject a small amount of cold air. Thus this cold air explodes (explosion = to big expansion in small time).

The air come out of the exhaust at -10° and the top of the motor get no more than 60°C.

Is very impressive.

They told me that to fill the "tank" you need 7 minutes with 50hp compressor.

It seemed to me like they are extracting energy from the ambient, well the air is going in hot and coming out cold... However thinking about, the air witch come out from the tank decompressed already comes out very cold due to the loss of pressure.

They want to make a car lighter made of tubular carbon fiber structure witch will be already the tank, and with compressors brakes witch recharge the tank during braking. This way more than 250km per charge could be achievable.

They are working on this since 5 years ago.

They used small neo magnets and magnetic sensors to set the point of injection. Seemed very simple.

I asked if they tried using water instead of air, they said it could work.

They called the process Thermofusion.

Well its pretty logical, You create a pressure and temperature will raise because of the concentration of the particles, You inject something cold, it will rapidly expand, thus giving a explosion like effect, thus when the pressure become low the air will be under the temperature it went in. So energy came from this interaction from ambient.

I guess if you inject hotter air you will get even more work done obviously up to a certain limit. And also the colder the air going in the biggest is the expansion.

They have changed the piston and cylinder materials and shape, the material is bronze, the shape, he would not tell.

[sebosfato]

Well, i finally understood

An internal combustion engine, when compress the air, it actually is creating a high density of thermal energy from ambient, when you inject air witch is of lower temperature, you are able to extract the energy present in the ambient temperature and thats why the temperature comes out lower than went into the motor.

Very cool indeed.

[sebosfato]

I would like to have some money to buy a diesel engine, and to modify it to run this way, however i would try to add some water instead of air and also some hydrogen to favor the extraction of the ambient energy into movement.


If anyone want to join, few free to help in any way.

[sebosfato]

If anyone is interested in seeing the video i posted it here: Electric field do perform work Concept by sebosfato...

[thedude]

another version of Vortex tube i believe

I believe that this fellow Joe in B.C. has a similar device called a "Joe Pipe" Haven't followed his work in a little while, nor have i replicated, but i have plans to do so with gasification at some point.
Heres a link to his device. Will do some more reading here in a bit. Supper time!

Joe Pipe video

Hope that it was applicable.

Edit>> Not really applicable now that i read a bit more. Joe's is a different beast, but may have similar vortex related effects as far as efficiency is concerned.

[Lutherman]

great post, thank you

The air engine you describe sounds like Lee Rogers' engine which was a 4-cycle air engine. At some speeds the car was able to keep its own tanks full. He had two patents if you want to see them, google Leroy K Rogers.

I have to study your post more carefully. Can you tell us the name of the inventor and where they live?

Regarding the vortex tube, I read that if it is adjusted too far to one side, the cold end will actually induce atmosphere instead of blowing cold air out.

I wonder if you live in Italy, can you try to find out what happened to air engine inventor Antonio Soro? He lived in Australia but had some very bad problems and had to go back to Italy to join the army, it was that or life in prison in Australia. However I think his engine was for real and he had witnesses saying so. He returned to Italy in 1918 to join the army, is there any way I can find out what he did with the rest of his life?

Thanks,
Luther
Pneumatic Options Research Library: Home Page
Canned Thunder

[sebosfato]

Thanks thedude, i will get a look into that.

Lutherman, thanks for the compliments.

I will check this lee rogers engine, thanks.

I don't live in italy now, so i think all we can do to find out this will be on internet. We could ask tutanka thought, he might know this.

My belief is that i'm able to create a better world. We can if we want and believe. Every single action can make a better world for only being in the right direction.

This thing about extracting energy from the ambient to make the engines run, is incredible simple and intelligent in concept. The sun provides a great deal of heat everyday, witch gets lost into space. If we use the ambient heat energy the ambient will not over heat too. Over-unity? The sun?

I created a new thread on ionizationx to discuss this novel way to extract energy from the ambient. How to extract energy from ambient by sebosfato

The idea relies in raise the pressure of a certain amount of ambient as a mean of concentrating the energy under mechanic pressure to be able to transfer this energy to another expandable media being at a lower temperature and higher density, for to absorb this energy by direct transfer of heat, creating expansion thus movement. The temperature of ambient air compressed at 10 bar can arrive instantly to 600°C. If you than add some air at ambient temperature it will absorb this heat and thus it will expand. The greater the pressure the greater will be the conversion or the lesser the air to be add needed to create the same expansion.

I believe that if we use water droplets at maybe 120°C we could create an expansion much stronger, however we should also use some pressurized air too.

If we achieve a good deal of transfer of energy from the ambient, we could actually make the engine to self run.

This ideas were created on my mind no one told this to me ok.

The inventor is from here Brazil, however their website is down. No videos on youtube yet so i will not post the one i made on youtube. if you want to see the motor running i posted the link for the video on the previous post, where you will find more from my ideas.

They only showed me the motor, and said the thing worked from thermalshock from the cold air and heat air. They didn't talked about the energy coming from the ambient, i concluded this my self because of the numbers.

You would need around 50cc of air per injection, witch at 3000rpm would become 18,000 liters of air. They told me it works using a 24m3 tank at 15bar 150km
witch agrees with the numbers.

Inside each cylinder you would have 250cc if the car 1000cc
You would get the 250cc compressed ten times so would become 25cc at 600°C you than start injecting the 50cc of air or maybe pre heated water droplets. The air tank must be compressed with more pressure than will be developed on the motor for it to run obviously.

The engine is better to be aluminum and or bronze to absorb the most of this heat from the ambient so as to create a resonance during the cycles.
I mean the ambient heat will start to charge the engine with more heat every cycle, where than you will get max temperature.

[Lutherman]

lots of info

You have an intuitive grasp of this topic. Thank you for sharing, because it gives us all another perspective to work from. I hope you will pursue your world-changing ambition, and I hope when you find the answer in the workshop you will still want to share it with the world.

Keep in touch,
Luther

[sebosfato]

Yes, thanks, now is all about constructing it. I would make it with diesel engine as to be able to extract even more energy due to the higher pressure, I will also modify the inside parts for bronze or cooper parts as to be able to extract even more energy.

I will than use water as expandable fluid as i believe would be easier to compress with a pump and inject directly.

I will probably make a thing for heating the water while creating a bit of h2 and use the pressure developed to pump the water. I think 500 watts is more than enough for this part, as i already made other experiments on the field. Than just need to adjust the valves.

I would like to make it on a small 4 cylinders diesel engine.

[tuzi]

Vortex Tube

Your original question about a vortex tube ...

The cold part pass in the middle of the vortex just like a twister

Actually the Ranque-Hilsch Tube has to have 2 vortexes to remove the heat from the air. ( or even works with liquids).

They work by forcing compressed air through a generation chamber which spins the air centrifugally along the inner walls of the Tube at a high rate of speed, over 1,000,000 RPM, toward the control valve. A percentage of the hot, high-speed air is permitted to exit at the control valve. The remainder of the (now slower) air stream is forced to counterflow up through the center of the high-speed air stream, giving up heat, through the center of the generation chamber finally exiting through the opposite end as extremely cold air.
Vortex tubes generate temperatures down to 100°F below inlet air temperature. There are many different explanations of how this works. (double vortex can drop the temperature almost 200°F below ambient)

In the 1980's I bought a vortex tube as a repair tool to diagnose automotive problems especially with carburetors. They would by handy to freeze a bimetal choke coil, or cool a temperature sensor to test its ability to change resistance.

See THIS VIDEO

These things really work.

[sebosfato]

Very cool information.

Thank you very much!

I just don't understand one thing, The heat from the compressed air is thus concentrated on the exiting air? Is that correct? So This could be used to transfer heat from the ambient? Lets say you compress the air Take it to 300° than run in the tube to get the outer temperature even hotter?

[Gdez]

Check this out too;

Going's on of Otto's Pastimes

and

YouTube - OttoBelden's Channel

He has directions to build vortex tube and cool videos showing the process.

[tuzi]

I just don't understand one thing, The heat from the compressed air is thus concentrated on the exiting air? Is that correct? So This could be used to transfer heat from the ambient? Lets say you compress the air Take it to 300° than run in the tube to get the outer temperature even hotter?

There are 2 exits, the exiting air is warm out one end and cold out the other end. If the entering air is 300° then the exiting air will be above 300° out one exit and below 300° out the other. Vortex tube is not so unique in increasing temperature as much as its ability in decreasing the temp.