Help wanted

[Tojaja]

Hello, this is my first thread on this forum as i joined it last week.
I got interested when reading a pdf on the Smack's Booster that is, for what i know now, an outdated design.
But i already had the components to build the Smack Booster so i start from there.
I want to build it into my car (no EFIE needed, car is from 1993 w/o exhaust control).
I already did some testing with nice "bangs" so hydrogen is definitely produced.
LPM not known yet, Booster was leaking so i fixed that today and will be tested tomorrow or in the weekend.
When i was testing the ss-plates (austenitic, probably 304 and not 316 because i got a plate from a scrap yard and made them myself) i see that there is some kind of brown material deposited on the plate of the anode side.
Is this Cr(VI)?
The fluid however (1L (± qt gal) demineralized water with ±30gr NaOH) stays clean.
Somekind of vapour, not constantly and not a lot of, is produced during electrolysis.
Can anyone tell me what kind of vapour this is?
For this testing i am using a transformer 230V - > 13,7V with a limit of 8amps.
Ok, i know, is to small on the amps but will do for first testing.
Strange thing is that the voltage drops to about 7V over the cell (this doesn't happen when connected to the battery of my car, there i have 12.5 to 13V min.).
Can you explain that (to small wires? they don't feel warm)?

The most concerning thing is toxic sediments or gasses that will be produced doing this electrolysis. If Cr(VI) is produced then it's something to reconsider the whole experiment.

Ok, that's all for now, thanks for taking the time and i am looking forward to your reply,

best regards,

Jan

[Jetijs]

Hi
316 grade steel produces almost no brown sediment, 304 grade does, so 316 is the way to go. This is called conditioning, after a while if you change the electrolyte regularly, there will be no brown sediment anymore, the plates will become a bit yellowish, but that is ok. As far as I know those sediments are loosely attached steel/iron particles that get thrown away in electrolysis process.
The vapor or smoke is electrolyte vapor with high HHO content. If you smell it, it will have a sharp smell and burn your nose. To get rid of it use a secondary bubbler with an airstone, this will leave all the electrolyte in the water of the secondary bubbler and there will be no smoke whatsoever from the gas leaving the secondary bubbler.
As for the voltage drop, I guess your power supply is not able to handle that much power thus the voltage drop. A battery can supply high powers, but apparently your power supply can't.
Hope this helps,
Jetijs

[SeaMonkey]

Hello, this is my first thread on this forum as i joined it last week.
I got interested when reading a pdf on the Smack's Booster that is, for what i know now, an outdated design.
But i already had the components to build the Smack Booster so i start from there.
I want to build it into my car (no EFIE needed, car is from 1993 w/o exhaust control).
I already did some testing with nice "bangs" so hydrogen is definitely produced.
LPM not known yet, Booster was leaking so i fixed that today and will be tested tomorrow or in the weekend.
When i was testing the ss-plates (austenitic, probably 304 and not 316 because i got a plate from a scrap yard and made them myself) i see that there is some kind of brown material deposited on the plate of the anode side.
Is this Cr(VI)?
The fluid however (1L (± qt gal) demineralized water with ±30gr NaOH) stays clean.
Somekind of vapour, not constantly and not a lot of, is produced during electrolysis.
Can anyone tell me what kind of vapour this is?
For this testing i am using a transformer 230V - > 13,7V with a limit of 8amps.
Ok, i know, is to small on the amps but will do for first testing.
Strange thing is that the voltage drops to about 7V over the cell (this doesn't happen when connected to the battery of my car, there i have 12.5 to 13V min.).
Can you explain that (to small wires? they don't feel warm)?

The most concerning thing is toxic sediments or gasses that will be produced doing this electrolysis. If Cr(VI) is produced then it's something to reconsider the whole experiment.

Ok, that's all for now, thanks for taking the time and i am looking forward to your reply,

best regards,

Jan

Stainless steel contains a percentage of iron
which accounts for the brown deposit or coloration
which has formed on the Anodes. When Oxygen is
liberated at the anode surface by means of electrolysis
it first appears as atomic oxygen which is its most active
form. It will oxidize any readily available substance while
in this state, before it forms into a molecule with another
atom, and the iron of the stainless steel is the most
easily oxidized substance available to it. Iron oxides are
brown as "rust" or red-brown.

Before using stainless steel plates in an electrolytic cell
they must first be "passivated" to remove the iron from
the alloy which is near the surface. This can be done with
Citric Acid or it can be done in a dilute solution of salt water.

If you use salt water for "passivation" apply power to the
plates while immersed; at the anodes chlorine will be
liberated which will preferentially combine with the iron to
for soluble iron chloride. Apply only enough power to get
moderate bubbling and let it "work" for two hours. As
the salt water solution gets "dirty" with coloration, change
it and continue for two hours more. Once done, (4 hours total)
rinse the plates thoroughly in fresh distilled water to remove
all traces of the saline solution and they're ready to be used
in your electrolyzer.

Then the plates must be "conditioned" within the Sodium or
Potassium Hydroxide electrolyte solution. Operate the plates
for about 24 hours with only moderate bubbling during which
time the anodes will become coated with an oxidized catalytic
layer (white) which will greatly enhance their efficiency. Once
conditioned the electrolyzer can be operated at full power
and the electrolyte solution should remain clear and the
plates should not change color.

Cr(vi) compounds are widely used in the chrome plating
business are aren't extremely dangerous when handled
with care. The principal danger from Cr(vi) compounds is
inhalation into the lungs such as in the near vicinity of the
chrome plating bath while it is bubbling vigorously.

You have no reason to be fearful of any Cr(vi) formation
in your electrolyte solution unless you operate the electrolyzer
at very high current levels (in excess of 250 milliAmperes per
square inch of plate area.) At safe current densities the
chromium within the stainless steel alloy remains inert and
the electrode plates are not eroded.

The recommended current density for stainless steel electrode
plates in an electrolyzer is 150 milliAmperes per square inch
maximum. If current is limited to that density then the plates
will last for many, many years.

The biggest mistake made by most experimenters is "overdriving"
their stainless steel plates with excessive current flow which
erodes and destroys them in rather short order.

Whenever you see any "reddish" coloration to the electrolyte
solution you know that the plates are being overdriven and
are eroding. That can be very unsafe.

The "vapor" formed during electrolysis is an "aerosol mist" of the
electrolyte solution. Do not breathe this "vapor!" It must be
removed from the HHO by passing the gases from the
electrolyzer through a bubbler filled with water before the
gases are delivered to the engine intake.

[Tojaja]

thanks!

Hello Jetijs and SeaMonkey,

Thank you for your quick reply.
You gave me enough info to work on.
To be continued!
For you SeaMonkey I have a question regarding the max. amps per sq inch.
I use 8 sets of plates (110x75mm (4 1/3 x 3 inch) plate dim.).
This is 13 sq inch effective area per plate -> 2x8x13 = 208 sq inch
With the recommended 150 milli-amps/sq inch i can safely run approx 30 amps.
Is that correct or do i have to calculate per pair so 15 amps stays as max.?

Jan

[SeaMonkey]

Hello Jetijs and SeaMonkey,

Thank you for your quick reply.
You gave me enough info to work on.
To be continued!
For you SeaMonkey I have a question regarding the max. amps per sq inch.
I use 8 sets of plates (110x75mm (4 1/3 x 3 inch) plate dim.).
This is 13 sq inch effective area per plate -> 2x8x13 = 208 sq inch
With the recommended 150 milli-amps/sq inch i can safely run approx 30 amps.
Is that correct or do i have to calculate per pair so 15 amps stays as max.?

Jan

Excellent question!

Yes, it can be somewhat confusing trying to
determine current density in the electrolytic
cells.

In your case each plate is approximately 13
square inches. Each plate is part of a series
connection in the "Smack Booster" configuration
so the Current Density will be based upon the
cross-sectional area of each individual plate.

Therefore, with plates that size (13 square inches)
the ideal current density (150 milliAmperes/sq. in.)
would limit your safe maximum current to
only about 2 Amperes for a power consumption of
approximately 24 Watts.

(13 X 0.15 = 1.95)

In order to operate at 15 Amperes of current the
plate surface area would have to be 100 square
inches to enable a current density of 150 milliAmperes
per square inch.

That is the drawback of the series plate configuration.

If your plate pairs were parallel connected instead
(8 Anodes and 8 Cathodes) then they'd be able to
carry a total current of 15 Amperes.

(8 plate pairs X 13 sq. in. X 0.15 Amperes = 15.6 Amperes)

Parallel connected plate pairs are low voltage (2 ~ 3 Volts)
and therefore require a DC to DC Converter to "transform"
the 12 Volts/4 Amperes down to 3 Volts/15 Amperes at a
power consumption of approximately 45 Watts.

Fortunately, DC to DC Converters which are capable of
doing this are now quite inexpensive and very tiny.

And by all means, please continue to keep us all informed
of your progress with this project. There is much to be
said for the benefits of "hydrogen boosting" of the
automobile engine.

[Tojaja]

Yes, thank you, i now remember how to calculate the current density (was a long time ago i learn it in school ).
This also means that in principle the Smack Booster design uses a to high current (2 seperate series of 4 plate pairs (4.5x2.75 inch each = 12.4 sq inch/plate = almost similar to the plates i use) and running with 20/2 = 10 amps per serie.
This is 5x the recommended safe max. current.
You said that chromium doesn't stay inert using a current about 250 milli-amps/sq inch. The max current should then be 12.4x250=3.1 amps
When i was testing i measured approx. 7V and 7 amps. I was making some chromiumoxide or ferrochromium (and maybe Cr(VI)) then.
Back to the drawing table.
In the meanwhile i will passivate and condition the plates.
I wonder if it will produce enough hydrogen with the low amps

[SeaMonkey]

...

I wonder if it will produce enough hydrogen with the low amps

It may. Even small amounts of Hydrogen and
Oxygen will benefit the engine.

For producing large quantities of the gases the
series plate configuration cannot be made small.

A low voltage parallel plate pairs configuration is
more effective and much easier to fabricate.

None-the-less, please keep us informed of your
progress and your experience with hydrogen boosting.

[Tojaja]

Ok, thanks for now.

To be continued!

[Tojaja]

Update

I have the plates passivated.
Needed just 0.5gr salt / 1 liter distilled water.
Was running on 1 amp (0.5 amp per serie) and within half an hour the salt
was all used and the fluid brown.
Cleaned the plates and did a second electrolysis with the salt.

Cleaned the plates again and conditioned the plates by running electrolysis
with Caustic Soda (NaOH) for 24 hours with 3-4 amps (1-2 per serie).
Temp. was around 36 degrees Celsius.

I tested the LPM (started with approx. 7 amps) -> LPM = 0.5

Temperature wasn't rising very fast and since my power supply has a max.
continu amp.flow of 6 amps i couldn't test for a long time.

I compared with other cells and they started with 0.5 LPM / 5 amps.

I am now going to build it in my car, see what is does.

Maybe someone has suggestions to improve the cell because i need to
many amps (7) to get 0.5 LPM.
Now it's like the Smack's Booster (2x 4 pair of plates in serie), and i am
looking for a DC-DC (12 to 3 volts) converter wich can run a min. of 15 amps. so i can test the cell with the plates parallel.

To be continued!

[SeaMonkey]

HERE is a possible DC to DC Converter for
the project you are working on.

Mouser Electronics carries these units:

Page

... i am looking for a DC-DC (12 to 3 volts) converter wich can run a min. of 15 amps. so i can test the cell with the plates parallel.

To be continued!

[sucahyo]

I am now going to build it in my car, see what is does.

I think you should avoid using salt if you intend to use it on your car.

[Tojaja]

thanks SeaMonkey, looking good.
About the salt, i just used that for passivation. Caustic Soda (NaOH) will be the
electrolyzer in the car.
I will be easy on the salt next time because i have seen some corrosion around
the nylon shims. .
I tested the cell on my car. When about 11-12 amps i had 1 LPM.
I think that's ok with this configuration.
Connected it to the air filter and expected something to hear but that wasn't
the case.
Exhaust gasses though seemed to be pure water (no smell and clear fluid
drops when holding my hand to the exhaust).
When installed properly i will go to the garage where they can test the
exhaust gasses (hope they will work with me).
Have to test it running some miles and see if there is any difference in fuel
consumption and engine power.
Maybe the engine has to burn clean first.

Meanwhile i can work on a parallel configuration.

To be continued!

[Tojaja]

update

I was working on the safety connections in the car and i, unfortunately,
discovered that my car does have a O2-sensor.
It's a sensor with narrowband output.
This means that i have to study the EFIE.
This also explains the exhaust gasses in the first place.
So now i'm going to make an EFIE first before testing with parallel configuration
of the booster.
I first need data on my car!

To be continued!

[SeaMonkey]

I was working on the safety connections in the car and i, unfortunately,
discovered that my car does have a O2-sensor.
It's a sensor with narrowband output.
This means that i have to study the EFIE.
This also explains the exhaust gasses in the first place.
So now i'm going to make an EFIE first before testing with parallel configuration
of the booster.
I first need data on my car!

To be continued!

Whether or not the EFIE is needed or is beneficial
is somewhat controversial.

Most who use boosters without the EFIE find that
it takes the automotive computer some amount
of time to adapt to the hydrogen boosting. Once
the computer "learns" how the fuel combustion has
changed it then makes adjustments which result
in increased miles per gallon. It may take a few
weeks for the computer to make those adjustments
since part of their "programming" is to not make any
changes rapidly until the "trend" is fully evaluated.

While we all would like to see instant results with
our hydrogen boosters, often we must exercise some
patience with the electronically controlled systems.

They do respond in time.

[Tojaja]

ok, thanks SeaMonkey,
I will try it w/o the EFIE, can do no harm, at the worst there is only some more
fuel consumption.
I let you know in time what is happening.

Gr. Jan