Electricity's Watson Machine

[Bizzy]

And so you should. But if you are in much of Europe, remember that this
is the season for making your own Elderflower Champagne. Magnificent
stuff.

Hi Wrtner
No, i am in the US. Although If i could convince my wife we would be living in Appenzell Außerrhoden or Graubünden now. We had some of our elderberry wine from 2009. Aged just right
We also make elderberry brandy which is excellent. We have made apricot and apple champagne but never elderberry champagne. I 'll have to look into that since we always have too many elderberries. Right now we are picking dandelions for wine.
Bizzy

[wrtner]

We have made apricot and apple champagne but never elderberry champagne....

I meant elderflower champagne. I'll post a recipe soon. What
status are your trees in now? flowers, berries or nothing?

[Bizzy]

I meant elderflower champagne. I'll post a recipe soon. What
status are your trees in now? flowers, berries or nothing?

that would be great...right now the leaves are just starting to come out...perhaps you could post in a seperate thread in the agriculture section.
just a thought
merci vielmals
Bizzy

[Bizzy]

an update

Good afternoon
Just an update on my coil switch for my Watson machine. I was getting too much flucuation below 2 volts, which is what I needed to run the mosfet and pulse the motor so i increased the number of coils from 2 to 3. It works great now. I just started a YOUTUBE account so hopefully I can share my machine in action with you.

I did find something of interest I was hoping someone could help me verify
On The attachment the first drawing is the original mosfet circuit i use to pulse the motor.
Since I am waiting for more magnet wire and magents for the alternator I have been experimenting with different circuits to help me charge the drive battery better.
Which brings me to the second diagram I took the reisitor that was across the positive and negative lines to reduce power going into the mosfet so It wouldnt run constantly and I hooked it between the motor and teh battery with a diode. Like I said it was goal to just use the excess power to help charge the battery a little more.
HOWEVER When I hooked it, it was running constantly in addition to pulsing
So instead of getting 12 volts then nothing it was getting 5 volts then 13 volts and was running much much faster but it was definately pulsing I could tell by the sound and the movement.
When i sut it off and the flywheel effect was still working the motor i was testing was still running as long as the magnets were still moving over the coils.
My curiosity is that the is no negative connection when the mosfet is off so how can be getting that kind of excelleration? Can i be getting some kind of feed back loop from the diode across the motor. I hope to get back to it on Thursday and I want to test it by removing that diode and seeing if I still get that kind of excelleration or not.
Bizzy
It was very exciting and worth further examination

[Bizzy]

another test

I was able to do a little work on the motor tonight before I go off to my daughter's concert...
When I removed the diode across the motor I was still getting the spped and plus togther as before, So i think i can rule out a feedback loop unless someone else has more knowledge about those things than me, which is very possable

The ohnly other thing I could thing of to explain this is that there is a time delay from when the power stops going to the gate and when the circuit is opened in the mosfet. This actually sounds like a more resonable explaination the more I think about....
But as always all comments are welcome


One other thing I should mention...as i said before I am just using the PM motor to test the mosfet circuit which is the one I just mentioned above. I have the wound field motor under the timing arm so i can get use to how it works...My question is if I can send a continual voltage through the pm motor then pulse it with a higher voltage like i have been doing, is it possable to use a PM motor for a Watson machine>>>just a thought.

Bizzy

[Bizzy]

this morning

I was able to work a little bit in my workshop before work today. I turned on my motor and left it running for a while, as i did something else. A half an hour later i came back and the motor was still running/pulsing but the mosfet was hotter than the ungreased hubs of hell. So i was able to conclude with that and my other test that there was probably a delay in opening the circuit in the mosfet so it is not some strange feedback loop. However since the mosfet was running too hot like that I also figured that circuit wont work.
Like a typical stoborn Switzer I tried a few other changes.
i put the reisitor back across the line from the gate to the ground again...and attached just a diode from the resistor at the ground to the battery(still trying to use that excess power from the coil switches) The motor ran fine and the mosfet didnt heat.
Either tonight or tomorrow I hope to measure if there is a increase in voltage from this or if it is just a waste of time. I plan on hooking the multimeter between the diode and the battery as well as the ground. Unless someone else has a btter idea where to measure the voltage. I am eager to listen.
Bizzy

[Bizzy]

over heating motor

As I am working on my Watson machine I thought of a general question which may help others on other units so i thought i would post it and hope for an answer.


While operating a motor either at a pulse or a continuos power the motor usually gets warm if not hot becuase of the load it is required to push...is there a component or a devise that can be added to reduce or prevent the motor from heating up?
thanks
Bizzy

[Farmhand]

Hi Bizzy, I don't know much about electric motors but maybe I could have some insight that could help or ask you a question that might help somone else help. What type of motor, just a normal DC one ? What is the intended current type for the motor ? I assume you want to use a square wave on a DC motor ?

What part of the motor gets hot first ? And how long does it take ?

Sorry for the questions. No need to answer them all or anything, just the one's that might apply if you want. Are you collecting any CEMF from the motor negative terminal or coil negative's ? If you are collecting CEMF are you delivering it back to the same battery ? And if so is it shifted out of phase to the power pulse ?

Oh what is the rotations per minute ?

Hard to say but I am interested too. I have a small DC motor I am experimenting with and it gets hot if I try to make it go to slow or try to use too high a frequency or too narrow of a pulse width, so far that's how I am seeing my heat produced. If I discover anything i'll let you know.

Cool project.

Cheers

[Bizzy]

Hi Bizzy, I don't know much about electric motors but maybe I could have some insight that could help or ask you a question that might help somone else help. What type of motor, just a normal DC one ? What is the intended current type for the motor ? I assume you want to use a square wave on a DC motor ?

What part of the motor gets hot first ? And how long does it take ?

Sorry for the questions. No need to answer them all or anything, just the one's that might apply if you want. Are you collecting any CEMF from the motor negative terminal or coil negative's ? If you are collecting CEMF are you delivering it back to the same battery ? And if so is it shifted out of phase to the power pulse ?

Oh what is the rotations per minute ?

Hard to say but I am interested too. I have a small DC motor I am experimenting with and it gets hot if I try to make it go to slow or try to use too high a frequency or too narrow of a pulse width, so far that's how I am seeing my heat produced. If I discover anything i'll let you know.

Cool project.

Cheers

Hi Farm hand.
Yes I am thinking about a DC motor either permanent magnet or wound field. Just as an example I put the one that I am using

Permanent magnet 12 volts 3.86 amps
Wound field motor 12 volts 4.3 amps

It is usually the outer casing that gets very hot to the touch while turning a load such as a small flywheel. It usually takes about 10 to fifteen minutes before it heats up

CEMF?? (I studied international finance and German in college and self taught in electronoics so I am not sure what that means)
The RPM is one of teh next things I want to test on my unit before I start to add more magnets to it so perhaps I can answer that later this weekend.

Thanks for your help and to anyone else who can help us.
Bizzy

[Bizzy]

Motors

Hi Farmhand
in regards to what we were talking about yesterday here are links to two of the motors i am currently working with. The second is actually a blower but dismantles easly and the motor works just fine.

PMDC Motor, 1/35 HP, 2350 RPM, 12 VDC, TENV - DC Permanent Magnet Motors - General Purpose Motors - Motors : Grainger Industrial Supply

Blower, Flex Mnt, 105 CFM, 12 VDC - OEM Specialty Blowers - Blowers - HVACR : Grainger Industrial Supply


So again if any one can help us to either add components and a devise to reduce or eliminate motor heating it would be greatly appreciated. Or if you know from your studies that it is impossable please let us know as well.
thanks
Bizzy

[wrtner]

Hi Farmhand
in regards to what we were talking about yesterday here are links to two of the motors i am currently working with. The second is actually a blower but dismantles easly and the motor works just fine.

PMDC Motor, 1/35 HP, 2350 RPM, 12 VDC, TENV - DC Permanent Magnet Motors - General Purpose Motors - Motors : Grainger Industrial Supply

Blower, Flex Mnt, 105 CFM, 12 VDC - OEM Specialty Blowers - Blowers - HVACR : Grainger Industrial Supply


So again if any one can help us to either add components and a devise to reduce or eliminate motor heating it would be greatly appreciated. Or if you know from your studies that it is impossable please let us know as well.
thanks
Bizzy

The first link is for a permanent magnet motor. This won't do, but the
second should be OK.
Paul-R

[Bizzy]

The first link is for a permanent magnet motor. This won't do, but the
second should be OK.
Paul-R

Hi Paul,
The second one is the wound field motor I have been working with and building into my Watson motor design.
I have used the first one during other experiments such as my alternator coil experiments and knew they heated up too which is why I added them into my question about over heating.
Thanks
Bizzy

[Bizzy]

Wound field versus permanent magnet motor

Hi Everyone,
I have been continuing to work on my Watson machine. I haven't made a recent posts about it becuase I didnt think anyone would be interested in how I am building it or progress in contrustion. I have a small blog of my profile here. Or if you want me to post it on a public thread let me know. Although it is pretty boring so far....
Anyway at the begining of this thread there was a debate about using a permanent magnet motor instead of a wound field motor like Watson originally did. I was waiting for some parts so I decided to compare the two motor types and found a surprising result
Here are the two motors I am using

PMDC Motor, 1/35 HP, 2350 RPM, 12 VDC, TENV - DC Permanent Magnet Motors - General Purpose Motors - Motors : Grainger Industrial Supply

Blower, Flex Mnt, 105 CFM, 12 VDC - OEM Specialty Blowers - Blowers - HVACR : Grainger Industrial Supply

To test it I hooked up the wound field motor to my shaft with 4 pounds of magnets acting as a flywheel. (the magnets are part of my on going esearch into coil switches)I started the motor and let it run for a minute once it got upto speed. After it ran for a minute I shut off the power and timed it to see how long it took the flywheel to stop. Once i did that I installed the permanent magnet motor and did the same thing.

Here is the test

YouTube - ‪bizzybuehler's Channel‬‏

YouTube - ‪bizzybuehler's Channel‬‏

The results were not what I expected: The wound field motor continued spinning for 45 seconds. But the permanent magnet fly wheel continued spinning for 59 secionds.
But before you run out and start buying permanent magnet motors for your Watson machine hold on. There are some things you should know the videos didnt show becuase my camera is not the best...And my bearing system i use prevents the vibration in the flywheel section which is away from the motor.
When I shut off the power to the permanent magnet motor, it shook violently like i was being pulled apart inside. I tried the same test reults several times with the same results.
If a permanent magnet motor would be used in a Watson machine it would have to be turned on and off atleast twice or more per cycle and with the violent shaking i am certain the motor wouldn't last too many minutes under those conditions.
Bizzy

[wrtner]

But before you run out and start buying permanent magnet motors for your Watson machine hold on.

The accepted view is that when the pulse to the motor is off, the
field magnets are likely to slow the system. If the stator is wound
field, this won't happen.

[Bizzy]

The accepted view is that when the pulse to the motor is off, the
field magnets are likely to slow the system. If the stator is wound
field, this won't happen.

Hi wrtner
Yes when the pulse was off the motor did slow down significantly, however it did continue allowing the flywheel to continue spining and for much longer than the wound field. I simply measured each motor against each other by how long they continued spinning after the power was cut off. Can you or anyone think of a different test I could run to test the two motors?


As I said I am still waiting for parts to continue the wound field motor Watson machine and in addition our hot water heater busted this weekend so I am now trying to dry out my workshop, but the results were deffinately not what I expected. Becuase of those results I may also try to explore them further.
Bizzy