Lockridge Device - Peter Lindemann

[n84dafun]

Bi-directional spikes bad, Uni-directional spikes good

Has anyone who has their motor running take a reading across their recovery terminals with an oscilloscope? I'm curious because if you look back at my videos, it shows positive and negative spikes coming out of the recovery. And look how poorly it charged the little cap! (1mV per second change in cap voltage sucks!) What do all the Bedini devices (motors and solid state) have in common? I think they all have uni-directional spikes (the h-wave), right? And look how easily they charge a cap!!!

I'm not going to bother testing my 4-pulse-per-rev motor at higher voltages because it outputs bi-directional spikes, which equates to zero net gain. I'm going straight to the two-pulse off-set brush configuration that I drew earlier, which I suspect is uni-directional like the SSG. Unidirectional spikes add up, Bi-directional spikes balance and cancel each other. There needs to be an imbalance for this to work, like a dipole that never dies, or a north pole only SSG.

I think Peter instinctively gravitated to using the two-pulse system that I drew instead of the 4-pulse not only because of the cooling off issue, but because of the bi-directional spikes issue that I saw in my scope readings.

Brian

[Mark]

Matts' setup really has me thinking of different setups I would like to test. The other thing I just thought of is with the zig zag setup with an internal diode if you left the brushes the way they were originally wired you could get 2 pulses per revolution if you just changed the wires on the commutator to a 90 degree location instead of 180 degrees. Then you would need to add 4 commutators to collect the back spikes. I'm not sure this would work though because after the coil fires and turns 90 degrees that AC signal Matt is getting would then be directed into the run battery.

[n84dafun]

Well here is a little bit of enlightenment from the zig zag design.

I still have my discharge brush's 90 degrees from my run brush's

I have been progressing in the level of voltage that I am running. At 48 volt (4 batts in serial) My motor run at .25 amp. 12 watts.
The recovery is returning 13.5 v and 1.5 amps AC. 20.25 watts But thats free wheeling on the voltage. It does also light up a 12 v 1 amp bulb very well and allows the bulb to pull .98 amps, while leaving 4 volt at the source.
Now thats the very simple way to measure. If you looked at pulse duration and recovery pulse duration (Or total energy over TIME) you may not come up with those same numbers but.... I would have to say this is encouraging.

Pay attention to one thing when you test. The motors amperage goes down the higher the voltage. If anybody still is running the zig zag.

If the motor were now driving say 100 volt .25 amp generator with the assistants of a flywheel and you serialized the output of the motor with the out put of the generator. out of sequence with the motor pulse. Well you might start doing something.

But we'll have to see.

After I move my brush's I'll step up the voltage to 96 and see what come of it. After all I got a a few motors to burn.

Matt

I did a double take when I read your post. Matt, are you saying you're running at 12 watts and outputting 20.25 watts?!?

Isn't that already overunity? Or am I reading your post wrong?

Brian

[mbrownn]

Has anyone who has their motor running take a reading across their recovery terminals with an oscilloscope? I'm curious because if you look back at my videos, it shows positive and negative spikes coming out of the recovery. And look how poorly it charged the little cap! (1mV per second change in cap voltage sucks!) What do all the Bedini devices (motors and solid state) have in common? I think they all have uni-directional spikes (the h-wave), right? And look how easily they charge a cap!!!

I'm not going to bother testing my 4-pulse-per-rev motor at higher voltages because it outputs bi-directional spikes, which equates to zero net gain. I'm going straight to the two-pulse off-set brush configuration that I drew earlier, which I suspect is uni-directional like the SSG. Unidirectional spikes add up, Bi-directional spikes balance and cancel each other. There needs to be an imbalance for this to work, like a dipole that never dies, or a north pole only SSG.

I think Peter instinctively gravitated to using the two-pulse system that I drew instead of the 4-pulse not only because of the cooling off issue, but because of the bi-directional spikes issue that I saw in my scope readings.

Brian

Yes, I have had that too in some early tests I did before this thread was started. They might be significant, they might not, we will see at a later stage.

Bedini may have used only the positive spikes in his demo motors but he has clearly shown how the negative can be used in the EFV series. But it does change your battery.

That spike may be something that we need to snuff out or it could be what we are looking for, I dont know.

[Matthew Jones]

Matt

Have you thought about just adding 2 more brushes to catch the spike and having 2 outputs?

I can't do that. I am using 2 commutator section. But what I can do is use 3. That should get a little closer anyway.

I did a double take when I read your post. Matt, are you saying you're running at 12 watts and outputting 20.25 watts?!?
Isn't that already overunity? Or am I reading your post wrong?
Brian

Well thats what the meter's are reading.
You have to look at the time it stays on, and the amount of time you output. Also the meter may not be fast enough to grab the true amp value in a pulse situation. Its probably giving me and average. Also the amp value goes up some under load and the potential goes down. And some how I have to be able to grab those while its running.
But that said the commutator ensure you are on only so long and you only are outputting so long.
With a good scope I could tell right away but it will take a little time with what I got. I am thinking about going and getting a better scope with math functions anyway so.... Now sound like a good time.

I think its going to need some more work. I have just watching it to see what I need to do to it.

One thing I did last night was go to 60 volt. That doesn't work as well. Something must be happening internally because amperage use goes up. All the times I stepped the voltage up before the amps went down. So that might be the overload point.

I see this thing working though. Just gotta find out how to tune it up.

Matt

[FRC]

That spike may be something that we need to snuff out or it could be what we are looking for, I dont know.

I think Peter stated that later generators were wound in series to snuff out the
Radiant Spike (in the Lockridge video or on the board here) I think it is something we want !

George

[Peter Lindemann]

Short Review

Hi Folks,

The thesis of my lecture is that it might be possible to produce a POWER GAIN condition within an ordinary motor if it is run in a pulsed mode at higher voltages. The operation of the Lockridge Device strongly suggests this possibility.

The broad spectrum of experiments you gentlemen are running in the exploration of this idea are most encouraging and I really do wish I could be participating more with tests on the bench.

So, the main thesis does NOT include energy recovery as one of it's primary goals. The main reason for the "recovery brushes" is to prevent burning of the commutator by the radiant kickback when the rotor winding discharges. I believe Matt is correct that most of what is available in the recovery system is the "generated voltage" which is well below the applied voltage in this case.

Some of you have mused on the similarities of this situation with a Bedini SSG. There are similarities, but there are also significant differences. The big difference is that in an SSG, the inductor (coil) is fairly large and the external magnetic fields influencing it are small. Here, the inductor is quite small and the external magnetic field influencing it is large. You can see that the radiant spike is present in both cases, but in this case, there isn't much current following it.

So, while the spike must be managed, this situation is primarily about exploring the production of excess torque for the electricity dissipated.

Setting up the commutator and brush arrangement as you are produces a fixed PWM type of system. That means that the percentage of ON TIME and OFF TIME remains relatively fixed regardless of speed. There may be more pulses per unit of time as the speed increases, but these pulses get shorter, and so the total ON TIME remains essentially the same.

The GOAL of this exploration is to create a situation where we can produce HIGH TORQUE PULSES at higher speeds to produce a MECHANICAL POWER GAIN!!!!!! When the motor is run in its normal mode, the torque drops as the speed increases. This is what we are trying to overcome. We want the torque to remain high as the speed increases. This is WHY we want to run the motor on high voltage pulses and ultimately restrict the speed with an appropriate load, such as a generator that charges a capacitor.

The window of opportunity is present for the goal to be accomplished. Step by step, we will see how the physics plays out.

Keep up the great work, everybody.

Peter

[Mario]

Hi Peter and all,

I'm currently working on an SSG type setup so, sorry for intruding here, just wanted to add to what you correctly say about the ON/OFF time percentages remaining constant, the motor may loose torque as with increasing speed, and thus increasing impedance of the coils, less current is allowed to flow. I'm not sure how relevant this is in this case?

regards,
Mario

[n84dafun]

...
So, the main thesis does NOT include energy recovery as one of it's primary goals. ...

The GOAL of this exploration is to create a situation where we can produce HIGH TORQUE PULSES at higher speeds to produce a MECHANICAL POWER GAIN!!!!!! When the motor is run in its normal mode, the torque drops as the speed increases. This is what we are trying to overcome. We want the torque to remain high as the speed increases. This is WHY we want to run the motor on high voltage pulses and ultimately restrict the speed with an appropriate load, such as a generator that charges a capacitor.


Peter

Peter,

Thanks for keeping us focused on the main goal. I became sidetracked with the recovery.

I did a more precise diagram of my two pulse brush/commutator arrangement using emachineshop and it looks like shorts occurs thru a jumper during a certain section of the rotation, which a diode could not solve. This is when segments are doubled up. With single segment contacts, no shorts occur but spikes are not captured in time.

Back to my 4 pulse motor. Or, since spike direction doesn't realy matter, try Matt's or Mark's config if you could post a nice diagram of your setup.

Brian

[Mark]

Wanted everyone to know that I rewound my rotor back to the zig zag method to try and replicate the low amp draw Matt had. Running on 36 volts My amp draw while collecting the spike into a cap was around 1.2 amps. Pretty much the same as it was with winding 2 seperate coils. I'm not sure why my amp draw was 4 times higher than Matts. Could be my wire size, number of wraps, the differences in the rotor not really sure.

I'm curious to hear more about Matts setup after he moves his brushes to see if that changes his results.

[Mark]

Brian

Have you run any amp draw tests yet with your 4 pulse setup?

[Matthew Jones]

Wanted everyone to know that I rewound my rotor back to the zig zag method to try and replicate the low amp draw Matt had. Running on 36 volts My amp draw while collecting the spike into a cap was around 1.2 amps. Pretty much the same as it was with winding 2 seperate coils. I'm not sure why my amp draw was 4 times higher than Matts. Could be my wire size, number of wraps, the differences in the rotor not really sure.

I'm curious to hear more about Matts setup after he moves his brushes to see if that changes his results.

240+ turns of 24 awg on the zig zag pattern. That means 1 turn equals a full pattern.

2 commutator spaces on a 16 pole rotor. But I am going to try 3 or 4 tonight. then I will not have to replace my recovery brush's.

48 volt so far showed the best results. But I am going higher after I fix the rotor.

Matt

[Mark]

240+ turns of 24 awg on the zig zag pattern. That means 1 turn equals a full pattern.

2 commutator spaces on a 16 pole rotor. But I am going to try 3 or 4 tonight. then I will not have to replace my recovery brush's.

48 volt so far showed the best results. But I am going higher after I fix the rotor.

Matt

240 turns, wow! That may make a big difference. With the 20 pole, the slots are not very big and I used 20 awg, I didn't count the turns but probably only had around 30. I just recieved a new motor I just ordered should be the same one you have. I also ordered 2 of the 2 pole motors, they should be here in a few days. I have some 24 awg but probably not enough to wrap that many turns. I also have some flat wire, 30 or 34 awg but I think thats too small.

Please keep us posted on your results when running 3 or 4 spaces Matt. Sure would make things a lot easier if we don't have to move the brushes.

[Matthew Jones]

Its 120 ft of wire. 3.33 ohms of resistance. Its not much wire really.

I didn't get to it tonight, the beer was tasty though. I'll let ya know tomorrow.

Cheers
Matt

[pault]

Princess Auto motor update

Update regarding the "Princess Auto motor":

I managed to remove the varnished wire from the armature with fairly little effort and no heat.

I snipped the outermost coil at the commutator and just pulled the wire.

The varnish wasn't a big problem, but took a bit of pulling. I wound the wire onto a spool and used the spool to help with the leverage.

I found that the worst problem was with the blue glops. They were rock solid. I destroyed the coils that had blue glop, by cutting them and then pulling (hard).

I salvaged about half of the windings, and destroyed the other half.

Be careful not to put leverage on the armature itself - it is built with many layers of thin material that can be damaged in the process.

I counted 15 turns in each loop. The spec sheet says 14awg.

[There were 10 slots. The wire loops were 5 slots apart. The end of each loop was connected to adjacent commutator segments.]

The copper commutator connections are "crimped". I opened the crimp using needle nose pliers, grabbing the connector vertically and pulling gently backwards.

* The 14awg in the spec sheet refers to the lead wires, not necessarily the windings.
* Two coils are connected to each commutator segment. In fact the windings are composed of one continuous piece of wire which is connected to a commutator every 15 turns. It's not clear to me how many loops are fired on every commutator pair connection (2, 4?).
pt