Lockridge Device - Peter Lindemann

[mklimesh]

Hi Group,

I picked up 4 of these motors at a closeout last summer.
Rated at 12v 28Amp, big brushes (3/8" * 3/4"), 16mm shaft, 16 commutator sections,
magnets are N-S-N-S.
Had to use a propane torch to soften the glue to strip the rotor.
Will do the 1,5,9,13 "baseball stitch" winding (+_+)

Mike Klimesh

[Mark]

I already tried that Matt. I left a little wire on each side and tried to pull it out after cutting thru the insulator and the wire just breaks off. I've never seen one sealed up this good before, really po'd about it. I'll be surprised if I can purchase just the rotor so I've been looking at replacements. I'm wondering if this common procedure for motors built by Currie Technologies, so I'll stay away from those.

Mark

[Matthew Jones]

Matt,
It looks like you are about to get this working. It also looks like your rotor windings came off pretty easily. Could you please just tell people again the exact model of your motor and where you got it from, so others can follow on the path of your success.
Thanks,
Peter
PS The "zig-zag" windings for your 16 slot rotor should use slots #1, #5, #9, and #13. But you knew that.
Also, from your pictures in Post #271, it looks like your commutator could use a clean-up already. Once you clean it down to clean copper again using the fine grit emery cloth, make sure to wipe it off with a damp Kleenex, and then a dry Kleenex, to remove all of the dust particles. Once the system is running, the commutator should have very little sparking on it, even less than normal.

This is the motor if you gotta order one.
This is the motor a RAZOR minibike or mo-ped bike will have in it. There are several makes. CE, United and one oriental one. THey all come with the Razor bikes.
My motor came from the scrap at the dump. I collect up the bikes every spring. By Christmas 4-5 kids get refurbished razor scooters. So I have parts everywhere.
In fact the motor I used was one of the worst ones I have. I figure if it worked out It would be cheese work with a newer one.
I shorted the wire on the rotor metal. Gotta knick or 2 somewhere. Then last night I unwound it and rewound but I think it has a problem in the back plate with the brush's sticking. It runs but something is wrong for sure. It has a drag.

I am gonna grab a fresh motor, tomorrow and do it again.

@Mark
If you just take your cut wheel to the coils that protrude out the end and grind them down till they are flush, then get a fat screwdriver on the other end and start prying the wire out, you can get it out.
Maybe the lacquer is thicker on your winding's than I have seen before but most of them are glued somewhat. Most motors for that matter.
I never had anything I couldn't get the wire out of though. I have rebuilt quite a few of them and have never had a problem.

I looked at few rotors I have loose and I do not have a 20 pole rotor but I do have alot of 16's if you can't get one from the supplier. I am not sure if they will work though.

Anyway
Cheers
Matt

[emfimp]

Dear EMFIMP, and everyone else,

Thanks for running the test and clearing this up with your drawings and pics. There are a couple of things I'd like to comment on here. First, and this is for everyone, DON'T RUN a system like this without the pick-up brushes in place. You will BURN the commutator in very short order (a few minutes). You can clean it up with strips of 250, followed by 400 grit emery cloth, but the best thing to do is BE PATIENT and not run it until it is complete.

Second, in the case of your motor, the windings in "parallel" will partially discharge into each other, lowering your recovery. So, you will want to wire them in series in the final set-up. Also, you have shown that the windings "could" be in adjacent slots. I have been suggesting to have them all in just one slot per side, with half of the windings on each side of the shaft.

Keep up the great work!!

Peter

Thanks for the tips Peter! I hadn't considered that parallel windings might partially discharge into each other... Will correct it tonight.

As for the recovery brushes - I now have a whole new respect for radiant energy, & see why the wiring style was changed for dc motors.

[pattester]

Got it Working

Hi All,

Here are a few pics of my build so far.

ImageShack Album - 11 images

The motor is one i pulled out of a childs scooter.

ZheJiang YongKangEast Starting Electronics Factory--汽车交流发电机,Auto Alternator,电磁开关,Auto electromagnetic swit,永磁直流电机,rmanent magnet DC motor,汽车交流发电机配件,Auto Alternator parts,汽车灯,Auto lamp

It was easy to take the wire out and i was able to reuse it to wind my first set of coils.
On this motor the brushes sit in the centre of the magnets so i wired the commutator sections that are in contact with the brushes when the slots that the coil is wound through are are directly above the brushes.

I connected it up to a 12v battery and bingo it worked.
Now Im searching through my scrap to find a suitable set of brushes for the recovery.

Great work and thankyou.

Pat

[Mark]

Hey Guys,

I spent more time today cutting thru the insulators that are between the slots that hold the windings down on my rotor. Still can not get the wire out, there completely glued in. I am going to try and call the manufacturer on Moday to see if I could buy just a blank rotor with no wire on it. If I can I'll let everyone know. The motor is made by Currie Technologoes Inc. Model:XYD-6A2. DO NOT BUY THIS MOTOR FOR THIS PROJECT.

Mark

[Peter Lindemann]

Model of Your Motor?

Matt,

It looks like you are about to get this working. It also looks like your rotor windings came off pretty easily. Could you please just tell people again the exact model of your motor and where you got it from, so others can follow on the path of your success.

Thanks,
Peter

PS The "zig-zag" windings for your 16 slot rotor should use slots #1, #5, #9, and #13. But you knew that.

Also, from your pictures in Post #271, it looks like your commutator could use a clean-up already. Once you clean it down to clean copper again using the fine grit emery cloth, make sure to wipe it off with a damp Kleenex, and then a dry Kleenex, to remove all of the dust particles. Once the system is running, the commutator should have very little sparking on it, even less than normal.

[Peter Lindemann]

Not Too Far OFF

SORRY!! This totally blows me away! I thought that by winding 1 coil in the middle of the rotor would cause 1/2 of the rotor to be north and the other half to be south and where the actual windings are to be the neutral zone. I know if you wind an air core coil all by itself that is the case but when put inside these kind of rotors that totally changes the dynamics? I'll have to think about this one, right now it doesn't make any sense to me Sorry again everyone, just glad that the error was caught, hope I didn't mess you up Turion.

Mark

Mark,

You are basically right about this neutral-line thing. If you take two permanent magnets and do this test, you will see. Simply take the pole face of one magnet and approach the neutral-line of the other magnet. What happens? The "neutral-line" magnet sees a violent torque produced by the fact that the like pole face wants to repel and the opposite pole face wants to attract until alignment and attraction prevail.

In a sense, that is what we are doing with the rotor windings, but in this case, only momentarily, so the final attraction event never occurs. All we want is to produce a momentary twisting force and then recover the electricity.

Sneaky, yeah? Thanks for hanging in there.

Peter

[Peter Lindemann]

Exactly Correct!

Hi Mark,

Here's what I understand... If you draw the lines of force between the magnets (in the drawing I posted), you'll notice that the wires are in the position to cut the maximum number of lines of force at 90 degrees. If you were to rotate the coil 90 degrees, it would cut zero lines of force @ that point. (Would move parallel to the lines of force.) So this position is where your maximum back emf will be generated, and max reverse motor torque occurs here in a generator.

So logically, why wouldn't max forward motor torque occur here in a motor?

EMFIMP,

Yep, you've got it right!!!

Mark,

This is also why the "zig-zag" winding works for the four pole stator set-ups. All we are trying to do is create the maximum distortion in the magnetic field going through the rotor from the STATOR MAGNETS. The current moving through the windings will create a big "S" shaped distortion in the field that would normally be straight through the rotor from stator pole to stator pole. THAT is what produces the TORQUE in the rotor!! The more violently we can make that distortion, the bigger the torque.

Peter

[Peter Lindemann]

Good Test

I have to say that I pictured the windings in the space between the magnets too (while firing) - oops! Thanks for your perseverance Peter!

Thought I'd upload a quick sketch for all. I tried this wiring setup tonight - works well! Loads of torque, even just on 12 volts. I don't have my recovery brushes set up yet, and with around 1 minute run time I can already see black on the commutator where the radiant energy is arcing back. Woohoo!

So this motor is just a cheap windshield wiper motor that I'm messing with - the two windings you see are original - I didn't wind them. I did have to change where they meet the commutator. (They are wired in parallel with each other)

You can see one of the brushes, & it lines up with the bolt hole in the case. (where the stator bolts over the rotor) This bolt hole happens to line up perfectly with the center of the pole face of the stator magnet. So the brush is firing in the position you see, & the windings are right at the center of the mag pole. This does work very well!

More mods tomorrow...

Dear EMFIMP, and everyone else,

Thanks for running the test and clearing this up with your drawings and pics. There are a couple of things I'd like to comment on here. First, and this is for everyone, DON'T RUN a system like this without the pick-up brushes in place. You will BURN the commutator in very short order (a few minutes). You can clean it up with strips of 250, followed by 400 grit emery cloth, but the best thing to do is BE PATIENT and not run it until it is complete.

Second, in the case of your motor, the windings in "parallel" will partially discharge into each other, lowering your recovery. So, you will want to wire them in series in the final set-up. Also, you have shown that the windings "could" be in adjacent slots. I have been suggesting to have them all in just one slot per side, with half of the windings on each side of the shaft.

Keep up the great work!!

Peter

[emfimp]

SORRY!! This totally blows me away! I thought that by winding 1 coil in the middle of the rotor would cause 1/2 of the rotor to be north and the other half to be south and where the actual windings are to be the neutral zone. I know if you wind an air core coil all by itself that is the case but when put inside these kind of rotors that totally changes the dynamics? I'll have to think about this one, right now it doesn't make any sense to me Sorry again everyone, just glad that the error was caught, hope I didn't mess you up Turion.

Mark

Hi Mark,

Here's what I understand... If you draw the lines of force between the magnets (in the drawing I posted), you'll notice that the wires are in the position to cut the maximum number of lines of force at 90 degrees. If you were to rotate the coil 90 degrees, it would cut zero lines of force @ that point. (Would move parallel to the lines of force.) So this position is where your maximum back emf will be generated, and max reverse motor torque occurs here in a generator.

So logically, why wouldn't max forward motor torque occur here in a motor?

[emfimp]

Not the one you want...

Could you tell us what the specific motor is? Out of what kind of vehicle?

Thanks

FRC

P.S. I am not sure if the Gyrocopter Co. is still going. The owner crashed and died in one of them a few years ago.

It is from Princess Auto originally, stock # 8002881, but is definitely NOT the ultimate motor for this conversion. There is no room for a flywheel, and will be very difficult to load down mechanically if you actually want to measure output. I'm only using it right now because I got it for free!

[Mark]

Turion,

Sorry for this. In this situation, Mark is NOT saying what I am saying. I want the slots with the wires in them to be CENTERED in the middle of your NORTH and SOUTH MAGNET POLES when they are turned on by the brushes. As the current moves through the windings, they will be REPELLED from the magnets and forced OUT OF THE FIELD.

This is the THIRD TIME I have said it.

Peter

SORRY!! This totally blows me away! I thought that by winding 1 coil in the middle of the rotor would cause 1/2 of the rotor to be north and the other half to be south and where the actual windings are to be the neutral zone. I know if you wind an air core coil all by itself that is the case but when put inside these kind of rotors that totally changes the dynamics? I'll have to think about this one, right now it doesn't make any sense to me Sorry again everyone, just glad that the error was caught, hope I didn't mess you up Turion.

Mark

[Matthew Jones]

Thanks Peter. I hated to keep asking over and over, but I wanted to be clear. Apparently I wasn't the only one who was confused, which is good to know. I sincerely appreciate your patience on this issue. Now I can proceed with confidence. Nothing worse than THINKING you have it right when you arer wrong.

There is no better way to learn though. Trial by fire.

Cheers
Matt

[Turion]

Thanks Peter. I hated to keep asking over and over, but I wanted to be clear. Apparently I wasn't the only one who was confused, which is good to know. I sincerely appreciate your patience on this issue. Now I can proceed with confidence. Nothing worse than THINKING you have it right when you arer wrong.