Lockridge Device - Peter Lindemann

[John_Bedini]

Questions

George,
I did ask that question and he said yes, as I was told that on the phone I also found out that where Norm lives the junk collectors came one day and the people that had them 22 in total sold them for the copper.
These devices switched with the commutator but with special brushes that Lockridge sanded down to fit the segments. Norm made a big point about this. I will see him again tomorrow I will ask more.
John

[John_Bedini]

I know this is not the place but.

@Armagdn03
I just wanted to say I was reading A post you made on another group about the Peg motor and it is the best Analysis I have ever seen on a motor of that type. Not that I'm into that but I just wanted to complement you on your work. When you right no one can defeat you epically Ted.
But I guess they never tried to make it. If I had a way you could use my machines but your far away. The work is excellent and I mean that.
John B

[FRC]

Thanks John

George,
I did ask that question and he said yes, as I was told that on the phone I also found out that where Norm lives the junk collectors came one day and the people that had them 22 in total sold them for the copper.
These devices switched with the commutator but with special brushes that Lockridge sanded down to fit the segments. Norm made a big point about this. I will see him again tomorrow I will ask more.
John

I wish I could ask more knowledgeable questions about this. But what you did say that he said about the commutator and brushes may be more crucial than
previously thought. Hopefully Armagdn03, mbrown, Turion, etc. will have more pertinent questions to ask. Maybe because of the late hour of your post, others have not seen it yet. Thanks again.

George Kupchak

[mbrownn]

Hi John, its good to see you here. Yes many

The rotor windings are they non interconnecting, star wound? If star wound are they wound in pairs?

The trifilar coil, Is it a simple trifilar or is it would as three separate coils?

And of course anything he may remember about how it is wired

I am not electrical by any means but I am starting to nail down some possibilities on how the device may work but of course I could be on the wrong path.

Any input you may wish to give would be gratefully received.

Mike

[mbrownn]

I found a little more information on the armature windings, there are two types, Lap winding or wave winding.

electrics_158.gif (image)

I could be wrong, but I believe wave winding may be what we are looking for. My question about are they wound in pairs refers to the fact that there are two coils in parallel attached to each pair of commutator segments but other pairs of coils on the armature have no connection.

The rotor on the EFTV video looks like it may be lap wound as it has double the number of segments when compared to the slots for the windings unless there is extra segments and coils because it is a 4 pole device. A simple continuity test between adjacent segments would establish this.

[mbrownn]

With the wave configuration, with the power brushes set at 180 degrees and narrow brushes we have the following conditions

1 One set of coils energized and building up energy.

2 As the armature turns two sets of coils become energized with more energy being stored in the first coils.

3 As the armature turns the first set of coils will make contact with the recovery brushes and at the same time disconnect from the power brushes.

4 The first set of coils will discharge into the recovery brushes so that this energy may be used in another part of the circuit while the second set of coils continue to power the motor. This discharge will also add to the motoring function.

5 The cycle repeats

I suspect that this discharge may be fed to a capacitor across the source lines thus reducing the required input for a given load.

[mbrownn]

If this armature is a four pole design, the current will pass through the coils at 90 degrees on the armature before reaching 180 degrees. The magnetic field will induce a current in the two underpowered field coils. If these coils had sufficient turns their voltage could be sufficient for the supply.

These aspects alone are not sufficient to make the motor self running because of all the losses in the system but we have not yet gone into the function and recovery of the trifilar coil.

[Hiwater]

Hi John, Thanks for stopping by. Is Norm one of the ones who worked on the device you had in the DVD. Did he ever say how close he had it to self energise. One question i would have for him is what size winding on the motor coils and if the generator coils were single or dual wound.
Mbrown has asked most of the questions that we are seeking answers to for right now. Maybe we could invite Norm to the forum here for a while if he chooses to do so. The more information we can get the better chances are for success. Some times the more questions we get asked opens up a new avenue of approach.
Thanks again for your time. Hiwater

[mbrownn]

Transformer action

I could be wrong about this and would appreciate some input from people that know more about this than me.

The transformer effect between the powered coils and the underpowered coils is also going to induce current in the underpowered field winding, I believe it will be in the same direction as the generated current from the armature field. If this is true it makes sense that the case of the motor is effectively split separating the magnetic fields so that as little interference as possible occurs, canceling out this transformer effect.

I believe this could be another area of gain where we get two outputs for one input as our input current is going to provide a moving magnetic field through the field coil from the armature and a rippling transformer effect from the powered field coil.

This is only possible when your generator coils are in the same case as the motor coils and your motor armature is the generator armature as well.

Even if the gain is small, Its significance is magnified by the fact that we have reduced friction when we compare it with a separate motor/generator system.

The waveform of this induced current will likely be a triangular one that is offset from zero but it may well be possible it increase its effect by placing the power brushes slightly off 180 degrees, reducing the duty cycle from 100% to any amount we want. This will allow the waveform to be triangular and return to zero during each cycle. I believe this would be maximized by having brushes no wider than one commutator segment.

[mbrownn]

Duty cycle and frequency

If our power brushes are set at 180 degrees we have a 100% duty cycle which only allows us to gain inductive kickback from the armature windings. Inductive kickback gives us a current flow in a coil at no extra cost provided a path is given for it to flow. This is truly a gain and is commonly used in PWM systems. So to take advantage of this gain we need to reduce the duty cycle from 100%. This can be achieved by offsetting one of the power brushes and any duration of pulse can be achieved.

The disadvantage is that if we reduce the duty too much, little current can flow and the motor has no torque but the gain of inductive kickback can be achieved. so It makes sense that we have less than 100% duty cycle.

It is important to note that all the functions will operate the same on inductive kickback as they do on supplied current with one exception. Supplied current is spent and inductive kickback can be collected.

To make maximum gain from the inductive kickback we need to allow it to flow until it has dissipated before we apply the supply current again.

Frequency is a double edged sward that can work for us and against us. As it takes time for current to rise in a coil we need the on time to be as long as possible to allow enough current to flow to make the motor turn but if this time is too long the energy that is recovered from the inductive kickback is reduced in comparison to the input. Once we reach a certain frequency the maximum supplied current is inversely proportional to the frequency and this limits our motor current if we allow our inductive kickback to dissipate to zero. Also as frequency rises, the period of time the inductive kickback lasts becomes greater on proportion to the input we provide.

It makes sense that we maximize this so that if we have a motor that is 50% powered by us and 50% powered by the inductive kickback we have just doubled our efficiency. It is possible to have a high enough frequency so that the period of inductive kickback can be many times that of the pulse we provided. but at these frequencies our current is so low that our motor is too weak to be of practical use. This can be mitigated by increasing the input voltage so that the rise of current is faster but this causes greater heat losses under ohms law.

The requirement of our inductive kickback is to provide more motive power than our losses so the frequency should be high enough to make the inductive kickback period greater as a percentage of the pulse than the percentage efficiency loss.

[Hiwater]

Brush placement

If we put our brushes top dead center of the pole shoe so our feild coil is fully saturated, lined up with 1 commutator segment. it shouldnt take that much to run these motors, once they get up to speed. Then the feild coil might not expell all its energy trying to slow us down. It can retain a lot of its energy to help keep the armature rotating. So it doesnt take much to saturate it again. To start the process over again.

[FRC]

If we put our brushes top dead center of the pole shoe so our feild coil is fully saturated, lined up with 1 commutator segment. it shouldnt take that much to run these motors, once they get up to speed. Then the feild coil might not expell all its energy trying to slow us down. It can retain a lot of its energy to help keep the armature rotating. So it doesnt take much to saturate it again. To start the process over again.

Would be good to take a look at a 1950's Delco/Remi generator commutator and
brush setup. Since JB said "Norm made a big point about this" Does anybody
have one ?

George

[FRC]

Keep in mind that the original VW and Delco/Remi were generators to start
with, made to run as motors also.

George

[mbrownn]

If we put our brushes top dead center of the pole shoe so our feild coil is fully saturated, lined up with 1 commutator segment. it shouldnt take that much to run these motors, once they get up to speed. Then the feild coil might not expell all its energy trying to slow us down. It can retain a lot of its energy to help keep the armature rotating. So it doesnt take much to saturate it again. To start the process over again.

The actual position of the brushes would have to be optimized to get the best compromise between power and generation. I believe the best way to do this is with the motor running and by using brushes on a moveable backplate. The discharge of inductive kickback does indeed add to the motoring function and this is where one of the gains in energy is to be found. To maximize the gain we will probably have to totally discharge the coil, a practice not employed in PWM, so we will have to recharge the coil from a totally discharged condition, twice per revolution. This will mean our frequency will be will have to remain relatively low, a good thing in a mechanical device.

The action of the brushes is very important and complex in what it does. Now that I am beginning to grasp all the functions of the commutator, I think it would be very difficult to reproduce electronically. I believe the original Lockridge was a uniquely mechanical device that would be impractical to reproduce without commutator switching. Part of this is because I believe it also serves a function in magnifying the transients but I don't want to go into that until I have something built to test.

[mbrownn]

Keep in mind that the original VW and Delco/Remi were generators to start
with, made to run as motors also.

George

Yes, I really want to look at the armature winding pattern, I believe it to be wave but there is a third option that I know of. The wave pattern fits in well with the generator function too if it is a four pole armature.