Lockridge Device - Peter Lindemann

[mbrownn]

What I have been doing is somewhat different to mats work and I don't really want to comment on that because what he did and what I am doing is very different.

If you have four coils setup like mats drawing, you don't have to worry about coil shorting.

I never put a diode on the armature as I did not find it necessary but again my setup is very different.

Going back to your scope shots, the lower image shows a regular small drop in voltage, I would assume that this is when the brushes connect with the segments. All the transients that you see are likely caused by interactions between the coils as they connect and disconnect. As I have said before there are many complex interactions between the coils on an armature.These coils, I assume, are not interconnected so as one coil connects or disconnects from the supply the transient will also appear in the other coils.

Much of what I am about to say is pure guesswork so there is no guarantee that this is correct.

If there are recovery brushes connected to the other coils, this transient can be collected there. If a diode is in the recovery circuit then the transient can be collected in one direction but not in the other. The transient that is not collected will appear in all the other coils.

Not sure about the terminology but I will call it a reflected transient. This is momentarily stored voltage which will discharge when it gets the chance and maybe this is what you are seeing. The reason that they are not regular in their timing may be because of small differences in the commutator/brush arrangement.

I say this because there appears to be four different sizes of transient which would fit in with four coils.

Normally we do not see a transient as we connect the power but through a transformer action in the coils it may become visible. Maybe this is the reason for both positive and negative transients.

As I have said in my motors I do not have diodes and I get a build up of voltage in the armature. Hiwater has experienced a lot of arcing on his commutator suggesting very big voltages.

The motors we are using are actually delco remy generators or similar. They have field coils and not magnets. The transformer actions are very complex. They are motors that have little BEMF in the motor field coils but these coils cause no torque. The torque and BEMF appears in the generator coils which are in the same housing. The motor accelerates under load because of transformer action.

I suppose you cannot call them motors as they are rotary transformers. We should not use the term "motor field coil" we should use the term "energizer coil" the generator field coils are also the secondaries on the transformer.

The attached image should give you a clue as to what I am doing

[Blargus]

Thanks mbrown, lots to consider. Yes I think that the small dips in voltage is the motor's "on time" if I'm using that term correctly. Hm, I will look again, maybe there are four different sizes of spike...I'd not thought of that. There are two slight carbon spots right around the beginning and end of each of the three connected armature segments, so maybe that's in line with what you said?

I've been looking at these sorts of diodes called "avalanche diodes" or "transient voltage suppression diodes" that are supposed to limit the spikes. I don't know that these transients going into the charge battery even in the positive (charging?) direction are good, as Dr.L says that batteries don't like to be charged and used at the same time. I also sometimes get an 80+volts multimeter reading on the charge side which makes me a bit concerned. But if this is a beneficial part of the motor (I.e an output), I also don't want to nix it for no reason. The way it's supposed to go eventually involves big capacitors in which the run and recovery appear to both go through, and if I could filter out the negative spikes then the run and recovery side spikes might both get stored in the capacitors?

Thanks for the peek at your motor. Amateur guess you're doing lots of timing stuff?

Really appreciate the thoughts/help

Mike

[mbrownn]

Sorry for the late reply.

its not just a peek, I want you to build it, ask me and i will tell you.

Charging and discharging at the same time, in my experience, causes the plates to break up.

Capacitors are much less efficient than batteries with only a 50% charge efficiency when compared to 75 - 80% with a battery. Pulse charging does improve this a little as it does with a battery. Its better yo use the power directly if it is possible.

[Blargus]

Sorry for the late reply.

its not just a peek, I want you to build it, ask me and i will tell you.

Charging and discharging at the same time, in my experience, causes the plates to break up.

Ah okay, thanks. I thought I had dead battery after running the motor for awhile, I think it is hard on the batteries with these spikes. Well I don't know how able I am to build it at the moment but I am curious. I am sort of amateur at this...I see the four stator coils--am I looking at roughly the right picture here:



Is the rotor modified or rewound at all and are you trying to play with the on time of the stator coils and the rotor coils? Are you trying to do recovery on the rotor and stator? Are the opposite stator coils wired in series? The arrows are the magnetic coupling I suppose? Does that mean you are trying have only an attraction turn the rotor?

By transformer action. do you mean that because of the different wire gauges of rotor and stator the magnetic field of one induces a current at a higher voltage lower current in the other? I'm trying to think what this would do, in the motor I'm working with, a higher voltage makes it run faster.

Capacitors are much less efficient than batteries with only a 50% charge efficiency when compared to 75 - 80% with a battery. Pulse charging does improve this a little as it does with a battery. Its better yo use the power directly if it is possible.

I did not know that, thanks.

[shylo]

Any suggestions

Hi folks, I wound the zig zag pattern, but the motor just kept locking up with just 2 contact points . So I used the 4 stock brushes and it works.
I added 2 collector brushes and connected it as per Mr. Lindemanns' drawing.
I'm just using 1 drive battery trying to charge another ,no luck so far.
Since I have 4 supply brushes ,should I have 4 collectors as well?
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
Sorry Peter I haven't watched the dvd, wish I could ,but I don't even have a dvd player. Times are tough right now.
I make everything from junk I collect, going to put some more coils in there see if that helps.
Thanks shylo

[Blargus]

Hi shylo,

Is your stator 4 pole? I had the problem that the motor would do a half turn then block itself. Dr. L pointed me to an old post by Matthew Jones that said you need to put a diode internally on the end of the wound coil to make the brushes pulse the motor only once per revolution. I believe mine is --(end of winding)--(|<)--...but now that I think about it it runs with some sort of recovery but it might be backwards... Err, but just putting a diode on clip leads external to the motor didn't do it for me. Maybe this is problem?

Mike

[shylo]

4 pole

Hi Mike, with the brushes hooked up stock design (2 positive connections 180 degrees offset, and negatives) ,the motor runs no problem,but am not seeing anything at the collector brushes.
In the post with Matts drawing I only see 2 coils , but you and mbrownn are talking about 4 coils .
Going to try another coil pattern. Mr.L wastes a lot of wire ,with that zig zag . It was a great way to learn though.
shylo

[mbrownn]

Hi Mike, with the brushes hooked up stock design (2 positive connections 180 degrees offset, and negatives) ,the motor runs no problem,but am not seeing anything at the collector brushes.
In the post with Matts drawing I only see 2 coils , but you and mbrownn are talking about 4 coils .
Going to try another coil pattern. Mr.L wastes a lot of wire ,with that zig zag . It was a great way to learn though.
shylo

The zigzag is for a reason. The way towire the armature is not the most efficient use of wire, Thats Lap winding, we want to use wave winding.

Mat and peter Concentrated on the armature using a permanent magnet motor, I am using field coils and four of them. No magnets so it is a different beast. What I am doing is closer to the original device as far as I know.

Get a four pole delco remey generator and use that as your starting point.

[mbrownn]

Ah okay, thanks. I thought I had dead battery after running the motor for awhile, I think it is hard on the batteries with these spikes. Well I don't know how able I am to build it at the moment but I am curious. I am sort of amateur at this...I see the four stator coils--am I looking at roughly the right picture here:



Is the rotor modified or rewound at all and are you trying to play with the on time of the stator coils and the rotor coils? Are you trying to do recovery on the rotor and stator? Are the opposite stator coils wired in series? The arrows are the magnetic coupling I suppose? Does that mean you are trying have only an attraction turn the rotor?

By transformer action. do you mean that because of the different wire gauges of rotor and stator the magnetic field of one induces a current at a higher voltage lower current in the other? I'm trying to think what this would do, in the motor I'm working with, a higher voltage makes it run faster.



I did not know that, thanks.

This is the type of generator you need, don't rewind the armature just yet, you need to understand the field coils first.

If you have not seen the video Energy From The Vacuum 14, get it and watch it. Turn the sound down and look at the device.

Machine two slots like you can see in the video and this is our first mod completed. From now on it is research and development.

Now wire two opposing field coils in series with the armature. The brushes to use are the ones directly in line with the two field coils we use. See this drawing on this post...http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...tml#post229448

If you connect a DC supply to the device you should find it is magnetically locked and the armature does not move. Study the magnetic circuit on the image.

Now short the two other coils out or use them to power a very low resistance load. The motor may run but not very well. as we are using DC there is no transformer action at this stage but we can start to tune the motor. We will need to move the output field coils either backwards or forwards to obtain maximum motor speed. This will result in the highest voltage output.

Now connect an AC supply and compare the voltage output. It will be bigger than the input if you have it tuned correctly because of a transformer action.

Its not a lockridge yet but this is the basics of the field coils. Now the real work begins. Let me know when you are at this stage.

The transformer action is between the powered field coils, the armature and the output coils. It is this action at the output that causes the motor to turn and accelerate under load. the input field coils are working as a magnetic energizer and produce no torque.They produce no BEMF either, all the BEMF is in the output.

Be aware that as there is no BEMF the current draw will be high so you may have to reduce the input voltage

Do you have any questions about this first part? you should have lots .

[Blargus]

Shylo,

Yes mbrownn is talking about a different kind of motor. The one I am working on (or waiting on) right now is a permanent magnet DC motor that has 4 permanent magnets in the stator (the motor housing). If that is the same type that you are working on, maybe try putting a diode this way (from last turn)--------|<--------(to commutator) at the end of your coil wire. This is not in Matt's drawing but I think it is necessary based on my experiences. Are you powering all four brushes to get the motor to run? Do you have 2 additional brushes for recovery meaning 6 brushes total?

mbrownn,

Thanks I do have questions...I would love to try it, but I also am very short of funds...I've been trying to save up for 3 450V 4700uF capacitors to continue the scooter motor development, no joy yet. Will keep an eye out for an old delco remy generator, I like the idea of working with field coils. That's a nice magnetic flux picture. There is not much back EMF in the powered coils because the magnetic flux is all moving in a way that does not induce much opposing current in the power coils? But in output coils this is not the case? I just noticed the slots there too Anyway thanks a lot, sorry I am not more able to work on this at the moment, maybe I can soon. I appreciate sharing your work and being able to think about it.

Mike

[wantomake]

wave winding

The zigzag is for a reason. The way towire the armature is not the most efficient use of wire, Thats Lap winding, we want to use wave winding.

Mat and peter Concentrated on the armature using a permanent magnet motor, I am using field coils and four of them. No magnets so it is a different beast. What I am doing is closer to the original device as far as I know.

Get a four pole delco remey generator and use that as your starting point.

Mbrown,
I noticed in the "Energy from the Vacuum Pt 14" that the armature winding skipped a segment as they rewound it. And it looks like lap wound on the back side of the armature. Not sure. Just looks different than how the wave winding on generators I have. But seems I'll really need a different wave winding than usual. I will wind the armature last maybe. Still waiting to order wire. Is 18 gauge the size used in generators from the 50's?

I do have the case slotted, and now inserting field coils. Will need to rewind two for the generator. I'm using old wire from other old generators I have on hand. A person gave me several that I'm using parts from.

Will try to upload some pictures as soon as I can.

Any and all input is appreciated,
wantomake

[mbrownn]

Shylo,

Yes mbrownn is talking about a different kind of motor. The one I am working on (or waiting on) right now is a permanent magnet DC motor that has 4 permanent magnets in the stator (the motor housing). If that is the same type that you are working on, maybe try putting a diode this way (from last turn)--------|<--------(to commutator) at the end of your coil wire. This is not in Matt's drawing but I think it is necessary based on my experiences. Are you powering all four brushes to get the motor to run? Do you have 2 additional brushes for recovery meaning 6 brushes total?

mbrownn,

Thanks I do have questions...I would love to try it, but I also am very short of funds...I've been trying to save up for 3 450V 4700uF capacitors to continue the scooter motor development, no joy yet. Will keep an eye out for an old delco remy generator, I like the idea of working with field coils. That's a nice magnetic flux picture. There is not much back EMF in the powered coils because the magnetic flux is all moving in a way that does not induce much opposing current in the power coils? But in output coils this is not the case? I just noticed the slots there too Anyway thanks a lot, sorry I am not more able to work on this at the moment, maybe I can soon. I appreciate sharing your work and being able to think about it.

Mike

Exactly. This motor, if you want to call it that, has little or no BEMF in the powered coils. It is a generator, an energizer and a transformer that produces torque. I suppose i could call it a GET or TEG or something like that.

By itself it is not overunity because of the relatively poor efficiency of the donor generator so additional circuitry is needed. It is the result of my Lockridge research and testing and bares a remarkable resemblance to what JB has

[mbrownn]

Mbrown,
I noticed in the "Energy from the Vacuum Pt 14" that the armature winding skipped a segment as they rewound it. And it looks like lap wound on the back side of the armature. Not sure. Just looks different than how the wave winding on generators I have. But seems I'll really need a different wave winding than usual. I will wind the armature last maybe. Still waiting to order wire. Is 18 gauge the size used in generators from the 50's?

I do have the case slotted, and now inserting field coils. Will need to rewind two for the generator. I'm using old wire from other old generators I have on hand. A person gave me several that I'm using parts from.

Will try to upload some pictures as soon as I can.

Any and all input is appreciated,
wantomake

That blank segment could be significant, I believe it is, but I have not proved anything yet.

The windings cannot be interconnecting or there are many interactions in the armature windings including shorting out the spikes. Wave winding seems like the pattern although I have not ruled out lap winding.

Lap winding with the interconnections has produced some very interesting results which we need to replicate, so use a standard armature at first so that you can confirm our results. Then we can do the other armature windings.

By interesting I mean a multiplication of voltage on the output. The waveform also needs more study.

I dont know the gauge of the wire but I would use the same as what it is normally fitted.

Make sure you can advance or retard your output field coils for tuning.

Once we have the motor geometry worked out we can play with the armature windings and also make it pulse. After that we do the recovery and then it is the trifilar coil. I suspect we have a few surprises there

Keep up the good work

[wantomake]

just update

That blank segment could be significant, I believe it is, but I have not proved anything yet.

The windings cannot be interconnecting or there are many interactions in the armature windings including shorting out the spikes. Wave winding seems like the pattern although I have not ruled out lap winding.

Lap winding with the interconnections has produced some very interesting results which we need to replicate, so use a standard armature at first so that you can confirm our results. Then we can do the other armature windings.

By interesting I mean a multiplication of voltage on the output. The waveform also needs more study.

I dont know the gauge of the wire but I would use the same as what it is normally fitted.

Make sure you can advance or retard your output field coils for tuning.

Once we have the motor geometry worked out we can play with the armature windings and also make it pulse. After that we do the recovery and then it is the trifilar coil. I suspect we have a few surprises there

Keep up the good work

mbrown,
Just wondering about your Lockridge device and how the build goes.
Presently I can't contribute while we are in japan. Wife is getting eyes fixed.

I finally was able to study "Electric Motor Secrets 2" and do have many notes and many ideas to try once stateside.

Dr. Lindemann stated that the armature was not rewound but, in the "Energy from the Vacuum part 14" JB is holding an armature that has "skipped" segments on the commutator. On the web I can't find a picture or diagram of any starter or generator with "skipped" segments like that. Just wondering. I'm sure I misunderstood or I don't have all the info on this.

Maybe this is important. Just trying to keep this interesting subject alive until I can get back to it.

Thanks for your time,
wantomake

[mbrownn]

mbrown,
Just wondering about your Lockridge device and how the build goes.
Presently I can't contribute while we are in japan. Wife is getting eyes fixed.

I finally was able to study "Electric Motor Secrets 2" and do have many notes and many ideas to try once stateside.

Dr. Lindemann stated that the armature was not rewound but, in the "Energy from the Vacuum part 14" JB is holding an armature that has "skipped" segments on the commutator. On the web I can't find a picture or diagram of any starter or generator with "skipped" segments like that. Just wondering. I'm sure I misunderstood or I don't have all the info on this.

Maybe this is important. Just trying to keep this interesting subject alive until I can get back to it.

Thanks for your time,
wantomake

Good observation,

Yes, it does look like every other segment is blank but we cannot see what is underneath.

Hiwater has found two winding types used on delco generators that he has seen, there may be more. I believe that a standard old type of wave wound armature could have every other segment cut thus no rewind. I am not saying peter is wrong but my instinct is that every other segment may be blank.

At this stage don,t worry about your armature, get the motor case slotted and adjust it for maximum speed/generation. Then we can play with the armatures. We have found a massive build up of voltage in a standard LAP wound armature which may be significant so I don't want to eliminate that yet.

Replicate the motor geometry and test it, after all possibilities have been tested we can try what we think the armature was. Your data adds to the research.