Maximum current in less time than the TC is the Orbo Effect!

[gravityblock]

Here's something to think about.

V = 12
R = 961
I = 0.01248
L = 0.961 - 1.0H
t = 0.001 - 0.00104

Fast rise time. The inductance is the inverse of the resistance. TC will remain relatively constant throughout all 5 TC's. Total rise time for current is ~ 0.005 to reach the maximum current of 0.01248 allowed by resistance. Maximum current is reached at the highest point in inductance. At higher RPM's, the Maximum current is reached in less time due to the inductance varying at the rate of the RPM, thus the system is more efficient at higher RPM. Basicly the total time for the current to reach it's maximum value allowed by the resistance will occur faster than the TC at higher RPM's, thus a "time variant field" for the Orbo Effect. This is a gain in energy.

[Edit:] I changed the title of this thread to more accurately describe the effect, because the original title didn't describe it properly.

GB

[gravityblock]

Based on false premesis.

Posted on OU.com

Something else to think about is that the equation you are using doesn't apply to dynamically changing inductances.

I agree, but not in this case. Compare the first TC to the fifth TC and you will see the TC's are relativley constant, thus your argument is based on false premesis. The change in inductance is varying at the rate of the RPM. At higher RPM's, the changes in inductance will vary at a faster rate, and since the TC is based on L/R and L is increasing which means "t" is decreasing at a faster rate proportional to the RPM. At a minimum RPM, the current will reach it's maximum current allowed by the resistor in less time than the ~0.005 of the total of 5 TC's. Any further increases in RPM is a gain in energy proportional to the increase above this minimal RPM, which occurs at a low RPM. This is a "time varying field" effect and is responsible for the gain in energy.

GB

[gravityblock]

Energy Gain through "Time Frame" manipulation

V = 12
R = 961
I = 0.01248
L = 0.961 - 1.0H
TC = 0.001 - 0.00104

Assuming the inductance is increasing 7.8mH according to a RPM equal to the TC, then we have the below.

V / L = Constant rate of change of current
12 / 0.961 = 12.486 in 0.001 seconds
4.44 / 0.968 = 4.586 in 0.001007 seconds
1.6248 / 0.9758 = 1.665 in 0.001015 seconds
0.601176 / 0.9836 = 0.611 in 0.001023 seconds
0.22243512 / 0.9914 = 0.224 in 0.001031 seconds. Rate of change of current almost equals voltage, thus resistance losses.

Assuming the inductance is increasing 23.4mH according to a RPM at a rate 3 times faster than the TC, then we have the below.

V / L = Constant rate of change of current
12/ 0.961 = 12.486 in 0.001 seconds
4.44 / 0.9844 = 4.510 in 0.001024 seconds
1.6248 / 1.0074 = 1.612 in 0.001048 seconds. Inductance gain at this point! Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!
0.601176 / 1.0304 = 0.58343 in 0.001072 seconds. Another gain in inductance. Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!
0.22243512 / 1.0534 = 0.21115 in 0.001096 seconds. Another gain in inductance. Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!

Energy Gain through "time frame" manipulation!

GB

[gravityblock]

V = 12
R = 961
I = 0.01248
L = 0.961 - 1.0H
TC = 0.001 - 0.001162

Assuming the inductance is increasing 39mH according to a RPM at a rate 5 times faster than the TC, then we have the below.

V / L = Constant rate of change of current
12/ 0.961 = 12.486 in 0.001 seconds
4.44 / 1.00H = 4.44 in 0.001040 seconds. Rate of change of current is equal to the voltage. 0 inductance gain. Break even point!
1.6248 / 1.039 = 1.5638 in 0.001081 seconds. Inductance gain at this point! Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!
0.601176 / 1.078 = 0.55767 in 0.001121 seconds. Another gain in inductance. Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!
0.22243512 / 1.117 = 0.199136 in 0.001162 seconds. Another gain in inductance. Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!

Inductance gain of 117mH after 5 time constants.

GB

[gravityblock]

@ALL:

Use the correct formula for a dynamically changing inductance and prove me wrong.

Inductance at TDC = 0.961mH. Maximum inductance of coil = 1.0H
Assuming the inductance is increasing 39mH from 0.961mH to 1.000H at a RPM that has a rate 5 times faster than "t", compute the following:

V = 12
R = 961
I = 0.01248
L = 0.961 - 1.0H

After you compute the calculations, I'll almost bet they're in close agreement with my calculations.

GB

[Zooty]

This is gonna sound noobish but what is "TC"? Total current? Time Constant? Two Cheeseburgers?

[sebosfato]

V = 12
R = 961
I = 0.01248
L = 0.961 - 1.0H
TC = 0.001 - 0.00104

Assuming the inductance is increasing 7.8mH according to a RPM equal to the TC, then we have the below.

V / L = Constant rate of change of current
12 / 0.961 = 12.486 in 0.001 seconds
4.44 / 0.968 = 4.586 in 0.001007 seconds
1.6248 / 0.9758 = 1.665 in 0.001015 seconds
0.601176 / 0.9836 = 0.611 in 0.001023 seconds
0.22243512 / 0.9914 = 0.224 in 0.001031 seconds. Rate of change of current almost equals voltage, thus resistance losses.

Assuming the inductance is increasing 23.4mH according to a RPM at a rate 3 times faster than the TC, then we have the below.

V / L = Constant rate of change of current
12/ 0.961 = 12.486 in 0.001 seconds
4.44 / 0.9844 = 4.510 in 0.001024 seconds
1.6248 / 1.0074 = 1.612 in 0.001048 seconds. Inductance gain at this point! Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!
0.601176 / 1.0304 = 0.58343 in 0.001072 seconds. Another gain in inductance. Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!
0.22243512 / 1.0534 = 0.21115 in 0.001096 seconds. Another gain in inductance. Rate of change of current is less than voltage. Ohms violation!

Energy Gain through "time frame" manipulation!

GB

Let me tell you what i understood than you tell me if i understood correctly.

You are saying that you change the inductance by the varying proximity of the magnet over time, and that the stored electrical energy will change by the time frame manipulation. Just like a variable capacitor?

Is not very clear for me this calculation, if you could please make it clear by repeating the meaning of each value and its interactions, would be much easier to understand what you say.

Tc is the time constant in reference to L/R right?

If you give the definitions will be easier for everyone to understand and discuss with you-
Br

[gravityblock]

I'll do a spreadsheet later on today to make it more readable.

GB

[gravityblock]

Let me tell you what i understood than you tell me if i understood correctly.

You are saying that you change the inductance by the varying proximity of the magnet over time, and that the stored electrical energy will change by the time frame manipulation. Just like a variable capacitor?

Tc is the time constant in reference to L/R right?

If you give the definitions will be easier for everyone to understand and discuss with you-
Br

Yes, at top dead center inductance is 0.961mh at 12V. I compute the 1st TC at this position (TC = L/R or 0.961mH / 961). Assuming the RPM changes the inductance 39mH during the 1st TC, then the second TC will be computed at 0.961mh + 39mH = 1.0H at 4.44V (TC = 1.0H / 961). The voltage will drop from 12V to 4.44V during the 1st time costant so the second time constant will be computed at 4.44V. Then I do the same for the third, fourth, and fifth time constant.

TC = Time constant.

I calcultated only the voltage. Don't know why I did this, but I will show the values of both the voltage and current on the spreedsheet. Thanks for taking the time to understand this. I think this is a much better method to use than the dynamic equation for a changing inductance, since the changing inductance is varying at the rate of the RPM relative to the TC..

[Edit:] A change of 7.8mH due to RPM during the 1st TC will be changing at the same rate as the TC, so there is no gain and there will be resistance losses. A change greater than 7.8mh during the first TC will have a gain. 39mH will be changing at a rate 5 times faster than the TC's. Really, the math isn't even needed to understand this. If the RPM is changing the inductance at a rate faster than the TC's, then there is a gain. It's that simple. The resistance must be the inverse of the inductance before this can happen.

GB

[sebosfato]

Yes, at top dead center inductance is 0.961mh at 12V. I compute the 1st TC at this position (TC = L/R or 0.961mH / 961). Assuming the RPM changes the inductance 39mH during the 1st TC, then the second TC will be computed at 0.961mh + 39mH = 1.0H at 4.44V (TC = 1.0H / 961). The voltage will drop from 12V to 4.44V during the 1st time costant so the second time constant will be computed at 4.44V. Then I do the same for the third, fourth, and fifth time constant.

TC = Time constant.

I calcultated only the voltage. Don't know why I did this, but I will show the values of both the voltage and current on the spreedsheet. Thanks for taking the time to understand this. I think this is a much better method to use than the dynamic equation for a changing inductance, since the changing inductance is varying at the rate of the RPM relative to the TC..

[Edit:] A change of 7.8mH due to RPM during the 1st TC will be changing at the same rate as the TC, so there is no gain and there will be resistance losses. A change greater than 7.8mh during the first TC will have a gain. 39mH will be changing at a rate 5 times faster than the TC's. Really, the math isn't even needed to understand this. If the RPM is changing the inductance at a rate faster than the TC's, then there is a gain. It's that simple. The resistance must be the inverse of the inductance before this can happen.

GB

Ok now i understand what you say =)
This way is much easier to understand the meaning of the values.

So you are calculating the isolated values of the inductances at the different tc's. Ok is quite approximated. I think that for the precise calculation you need to use integration, but i understand your point. Is like calculating the area under a graphic however the graph is a curve so you need to have more thinner rectangles.

Whenever the rpm is high enough, making the time space interaction faster than the time constant, you get gain in voltage and current. Right?

So what you are saying is that the motion of the motor is not important to the energy gain? I mean, the method used for spin the wheel. Or theres also relation to the cancellation of the magnetic attraction?

How did you calculated the change in inductance? Or did you just measured it?

Could we use different values for the inductance than? Did you used this value for example?

Thanks

nice discussion

[gravityblock]

Ok now i understand what you say =)
This way is much easier to understand the meaning of the values.

So you are calculating the isolated values of the inductances at the different tc's. Ok is quite approximated. I think that for the precise calculation you need to use integration, but i understand your point. Is like calculating the area under a graphic however the graph is a curve so you need to have more thinner rectangles.

Whenever the rpm is high enough, making the time space interaction faster than the time constant, you get gain in voltage and current. Right?

So what you are saying is that the motion of the motor is not important to the energy gain? I mean, the method used for spin the wheel. Or theres also relation to the cancellation of the magnetic attraction?

How did you calculated the change in inductance? Or did you just measured it?

Could we use different values for the inductance than? Did you used this value for example?

Thanks

nice discussion

The coil has a total inductance of 1.0H. At TDC, the inductance will be 0.961mH. This is a 39mH difference. Dividing 39mH by 5 is 7.8mH. I divided by 5 because it takes 5 time constants for the current to reach its maximum value allowed by the resistance. So, if the inductance is changing at the same rate as the time constants, then there will be a change of 7.8mH during the first TC, 7.8mH change during the second TC, 7.8mH change during the third TC, 7.8mH change during the fourth TC, and a 7.8mH change during the fifth TC for a total of 39mH change over all five time constants. As you can see, this is intergrating over 5 time constants, which should be accurate as far as the end results.

Since the rate of change of 7.8mH for the inductance is equal to the time constants, then it will be at unity minus resistance losses. At the end of 5 time constants, then there would have been a total of 39mH change. If there is a change of more than 7.8mH during the time constants, then there will be an inductance gain.

You may ask the question, Why can't we have a total of 100mH change for the inductance instead of 39mH? This is a good question, but I suspect the RPM would need to be astronomical in order for the 100mH to be changing at a rate faster than the TC's. I don't know this for sure and I'm only guessing at the moment. When I get the spreadsheet finished, then I'll work on the RPM needed in order to change the inductance faster than the time constants. 39mH total change in inductance may require an extremely high RPM. Steorn may have used a 24mH change, which was around 1200 - 1700 RPM's I think. This may be the reason for the magnets being far from the coil as they pass and the reason for the magnetic bearings. The coil will need to be saturated at very low currents in order for the magnet's to pass. I would think metglas is a prime candidate for this due to it's extremely high permeability.

Hopefully in the next few hours I'll have the spreadsheet done so we can play with the numbers.

GB

[sebosfato]

Cool, thank you for the effort. I will keep studying here to understand yet better what you are saying. Don't stop.

Br
Fabio

[ABCStore]

The coil has a total inductance of 1.0H. At TDC, the inductance will be 0.961mH. This is a 39mH difference.

999.039mH difference...

ABC

[gravityblock]

999.039mH difference...

ABC

The original statement should have been, "The coil has a total inductance of 1.0H. At TDC, the inductance will be 0.961H. This is a 39mH difference". The end result of 39mH is still the same. I was thinking one thing and typing another thing.

1.000H - 0.961H = 0.039H or 39mH.

Thanks,

GB

[gravityblock]

How do I upload the spreadsheet? Will I need to upload it somewhere else, then provide a link to it?

Thanks,

GB