3 Pole Kit from Rennaissance Meeting

[john_g]

Hi All

This thread is for people making the 3 pole kit from the rennaissance meeting. Hopefully we will be able to cover construction, problems, improvements etc.

Regards

John

[kippered]

Good idea John I was planning on starting a thread for the same but got caught up in other things.

I had the kit up and running well and then burnt out a transistor after i brought it to an event and a component got bent shorting to another component.

Right now I am re-building it in a manner that components can be changed with no soldering required... This will make it easy to replace components that burn out due to testing or if I want to try new components or wiring.
I will post a pic of the setup once it is finished.

My next step is to play with different transistors and tune the speed (via pots) to maximum for the minimum input current and then figure out a way to dump the generated power into either the charge or (trickier) drive battery. Basically as Peter L and others pointed out on the R-Charge convention thread, and then expand with my own ideas such.

I have put together a doccument on troubleshooting issues I have come across and basic theory of operation (as i see it) that I can post if people think it might be of value.

[john_g]

Good idea John I was planning on starting a thread for the same but got caught up in other things.

I had the kit up and running well and then burnt out a transistor after i brought it to an event and a component got bent shorting to another component.

Right now I am re-building it in a manner that components can be changed with no soldering required... This will make it easy to replace components that burn out due to testing or if I want to try new components or wiring.
I will post a pic of the setup once it is finished.

My next step is to play with different transistors and tune the speed (via pots) to maximum for the minimum input current and then figure out a way to dump the generated power into either the charge or (trickier) drive battery. Basically as Peter L and others pointed out on the R-Charge convention thread, and then expand with my own ideas such.

I have put together a doccument on troubleshooting issues I have come across and basic theory of operation (as i see it) that I can post if people think it might be of value.

Hi Kippered

Yes post up your document and pics, that will be helpful. I will e-mail Rick to see if he can give me the correct circuit diagram to post up - unless you have one. I think a few people are still waiting for parts etc.

Regards

John

[kippered]

Hi Kippered

Yes post up your document and pics, that will be helpful. I will e-mail Rick to see if he can give me the correct circuit diagram to post up - unless you have one. I think a few people are still waiting for parts etc.

Regards

John

Will do once I get home tonight. I used the typical SSG diagram but it doesnt show some details such as the transistor pinout etc..

[everyidea]

Still waiting to receive my missing magnets and missing bearing for the wheel. I've sent an e-mail but no reply from them. It's been about a month now and no word from them regarding a correct schematic or my missing parts.

Very bummed on their follow through.

rw

[radiant1]

I got 6 1N4007 diodes in my kit. Was I supposed to of gotten 3 1N4001 diodes? I have a good schematic from the Bedini Monopole3 Yahoo group.
I changed the transistors to 2N3055. I am working on rewiring it.
Alan

[kippered]

As promised here are my work in progress notes minus my plans going forward which we can all discuss, please feel free to correct me if I have things wrong or at least have a discussion around it.

Concept
The Bedini motor harnesses extra energy from the environment by the use of the radient voltage spike coming from the colapsing magnetic field in a coil of wire. This spike charges a battery that makes use of this pure voltage spike to chemically recharge itself. The extra radient energy is gained due to a disturbance in the surrounding environment that allows the extra energy around the wire (heaviside flow) to enter the circuit.

The energy lost from the primary battery is due to the energizing of the 3 coils briefly which requires energy to establish the magnetic field and provides rotor push via repulsion of north poles. The use of permanent magnets in the rotor provides a free magnetic field used to trigger the coil pulses and also to provide repulsion moving the rotor. The speed of the motor is self determined by the applied voltage (field strength) and the number of asymetrical trigger poles. The rotor torque is determined by the number of pulse coils, more coils equals more torque. If using a generator coil to drive a load then it will affect speed depending on the current load (BEMF).

The COP>1 has to be acheived by:

COP = Pout / Pin

Pout factors:
Increased charge in charge battery (after rest period)
Rotary mechanical force that can be sustained
Excess Generated electricity (Gen coil etc...)

Pin factors:
Primary Battery consumption (after rest period)

Therefore:
COP = (Increase in charge + Mechanical force + Generated power) / Primary Battery consumption

The 3 pole kit performance goals
- Should be in the neighbourhood of 5000RPM
- Should generate about 24V
- Should be able to put all the energy into charging the batteries
- Should be able to become a self runner
- Should be able to indefinetly run using a basic battery swapper system to rotate 3 or 4 batteries

The SSG diagram and description of the circuit operation
(SEE ATTACHMENT FOR MY REVISED SCHEMATIC)

- As the magnet on the rotor approaches T1 it induces a current in the trigger side coil (left)that goes through D1, R2 and the potentiometer R1. It does not induce into the drive side (right) because it is an open circuit. When the Magnet is directly above the core the induced current stops.
- When the magnet has past the core it induces a current in the opposite direction (Lenz’s law) that flows through the base of the transistor Q1 and out through the emmiter. This turns on Q1 and then current flows from BT2 into the drive side coil (right) repulsing the rotor magnet by creating a like (N) pole.
- Once the magnet is past the the trigger coil the induced current stops and shuts off Q1. The collapsing magnetic field then sends a spike through D2 and into BT1 charging it.
- The Neon bulb NE-2 is for visual feedback and provides dampening of too large of spikes due to its high resistance, and if there is no charge battery connected protects the circuit.
- Purpose of LP1 must be to stop the reverse current flow and give a visual confirming that you have trigger voltage
- For the 3 pole kit to make it run LP1, R1 and R2 are replaced with the 220ohm resistor and you add the 3 identical circuits in paralell to eachother at the 4 common points (BT2 negative, trigger coil start, BT1 positive, and either the switch terminal or junction of BT1 negative and BT2 positive)

Troubleshooting tips with the Energizer

- Initial problem might occur due to the trigger circuit and the Vbe not being high enough. Factors to consider are moving the core closer to the rotor to induce more voltage in the winding, and also adjusting the resistance to a lower value in the trigger circuit which should allow more votage to the Vbe jucttion
- Once able to prove that the transistors are turning on (should see the rotor coast to a stop rather than sudden stop) you need to adjust the timing by moving the trigger coil to a spot where the pulses are pushing the rotor more, typically it seems to be off dead center by 10degrees and depends on the direction of rotation
- To prove each coil is firing, remove the wire from one coil at a time. If it slows down then that coil was firing, otherwise it might not have been working and requires using an oscilliscope or voltmeter
- Upon hookup of the battery there can be a slight inrush current in the coils. This might be enough to induce a current in the trigger circuit and actually turn the transistor on to fire it. Try starting with the pots on maximum for the hookup and then crank them down for the start to limit the current to the base

[kippered]

The single most important thing is to educate yourself and know what the components are and how they work, what they are looking for etc...

Attached is the datasheet for the 8099 transistors. I had them running fine and reached about 3000 RPM with the fixed 220ohm resistor but now I have 1kohm pots to work with and am going to experiment with transistors like Alan.

I will post pics of the kit re-build once it is done

[theremart]

As promised here are my work in progress notes minus my plans going forward which we can all discuss, please feel free to correct me if I have things wrong or at least have a discussion around it.

Looking at your schematic, I would suggest a higher resistor than 10 ohms in your SSG schematic, 47 ohms is the lowest I would go unless you are driving with like 6 V.

Just a suggestion. I have burnt up many a resistor at that location when I stepped up to 12 V / 24 V / 48 V, using this circuit.

[kippered]

Looking at your schematic, I would suggest a higher resistor than 10 ohms in your SSG schematic, 47 ohms is the lowest I would go unless you are driving with like 6 V.

Just a suggestion. I have burnt up many a resistor at that location when I stepped up to 12 V / 24 V / 48 V, using this circuit.

Thanks theremart

I have used the 10ohm with the MJL21194 with no problems but I am sure you are right with using low power transistors such as the 8099.

[everyidea]

After three e-mails I just got the word, magnets and my bearing are shipping... in two to three weeks.

Happy days,

rw

[Shanjaq]

Transistor effect on Efficiency

Something I would like to add for improving drive efficiency once you start using your own transistors: Look for transistors which have a very high "DC Current Gain", or hFE value. This will permit you to use a higher resistance on the trigger coil for the same effect, as the "amplification" of current is improved.

I started out with some NTE210's(very expensive, WOULD NOT RECOMMEND) which had an hFE of 360, and found that I could use a very high resistance on the trigger at the "sweet spot". Each transistor had 470ohm to the Base, plus I had a 1k potentiometer tuned to around 500ohms with a 12v run battery.

Due to a mishap with the charge battery coming loose at high RPM, I lost the NTE210's and had to order some cheaper alternatives. After a bit of searching, I settled on the 2N6292, which has an hFE of 150(80v, 10A peak, $0.96 each.) I am VERY happy with the results.

I had the opportunity to witness how badly a transistor can perform with low DC Current Gain thanks to some salvaged transistors out of a PC Power Supply, which had an hFE of around 30.. I had to use 100-ohm resistors on the individual base connections, and my potentiometer was set to around 200ohms at the "sweet spot", and acceleration was generally sluggish. Listening to the coils with an audio EMF meter, the pulses had a "blunted" sound to them, as compared to the "snappy" character of the high-gain transistors.

Hope this helps!

[nvisser]

The transistors recommended By John Bedini has low current gains in comparison with the ones you recommend. Do you get good good reactive outputs when running with such low currents using higher value resistors?
2N3055 hFE 70
MJL21194 hfe 75

[Shanjaq]

The transistors recommended By John Bedini has low current gains in comparison with the ones you recommend. Do you get good good reactive outputs when running with such low currents using higher value resistors?
2N3055 hFE 70
MJL21194 hfe 75

The MJL21194 actually has a rather decent current gain for its ratings(250 Vceo, 16-30 Amps Ic!) and you would be hard-pressed to find better corresponding with higher power ratings. For the 3-pole kit, it just seemed a tad excessive, so I opted for a "mid-range" transistor which would achieve quick acceleration and tight reaction time by virtue of its sensitivity/amplification of the trigger signal.

The 2N3055 has a lower Vceo(60) and is generally sluggish at switching as has been pointed out elsewhere.


With regard to switching speed(fT):
2N3055 fT 2.5 MHz
2n6292 fT 4 MHz
MJL21194 fT 4 MHz

This value appears to be an average over a curve of applied current(Ic) although some datasheets also include a graph which shows this relation.


As for the charging rate, I need to "standardize" my setup in order to compare. However, gaining the ability to use a higher base resistance at the "sweet spot" might have the benefit of less current being used from the trigger coil(it IS a generator) to mitigate Lenz dragging down the RPM...

[kippered]

As for the charging rate, I need to "standardize" my setup in order to compare. However, gaining the ability to use a higher base resistance at the "sweet spot" might have the benefit of less current being used from the trigger coil(it IS a generator) to mitigate Lenz dragging down the RPM...

Still tinkering around with my setup which is now standardized and I can swap transistors real easy

I went online to NEWARK and selected a transistor based on the ratings that I thought would suit (decent gain fast switching) and came up:
D44C1 power transistor
Hfe = 25 - 200
Ft = 50Mhz
Tried it out and it seems to work very well with more and higher peaks than both the 8099 and 21194.
In my tests the 8099 and 21194 operate quite well and have pretty much the same results but neither as good as the D44C1. I have been using a 1Kohm resistor with a 1Kohm wirewound pot which seems to give me the best results.

I also figured out why my 8099's were burning up, and why the on/off switch is important:
when you clip on the battery lead there is a slight leakage current inrush into the coil which is enough to induce a current into the trigger coil and turn the transistor on to way more current than it should handle and it burns out.

Ironically this only happens if the transistor is brand new and it does not happen after conditioning.

I feel like I am getting closer to the right operating perameters as I have my RPM's up to 5000 and see good radient spikes up to about 40volts... I actually think they might be higher but my 100MHz laptop o-scope might not be fast enough to see the true peak value.

I also have noticed that impedance matching the batteries does make a big difference and am looking forward to getting my free lead acid UPS batteries from work that are exactly the same for some true experiments.