Edison battery

[kcarring]

All said though a good emergency battery is aluminum, copper and bleach. Doesn't last but works great.

[kcarring]

I will finish my project but honestly it isnt worth the effort, I'll have maybe 800 amp hours and it will occupy the same space as a compact vehicle. keep in mind you have to run 11 cells or even 12 if homemade to get 12v.

If you wanna get experimental i advise you to give what John Bedini did, a shot - try buying a cheapy walmart 12v lead acid, thoroughly flush it out, and try running it with alum instead of acid. i agree, it should work, I wanna give it a shot.

[kcarring]

"shredding the aluminum and mixing it with an more material to still allow a flow of the water to each plate and keep the connected conductivity of the shredded material. This was done in the case of the Edison batteries by putting the material in a steel tube with many many perforations in the tubes walls."

It wasn't quite that simple...

Edison made nickel "snowflakes" - it was quite the process, a good read. The key to that was removing the (copper?) that was plated, if I remember correctly he burned it off with acid leaving the nickel flake behind. The copper was used as a substrate to hold the nickel so it wasn't so much that he shredded up nickel rather he made micro thin depositions, then removed or destroyed what held them (the copper), leaving ultra thin flakes behind. much finer than you'd ever accomplish by merely "shredding" alone. Long metal perforated tubes were filled with the flakes, and they were pounded down with huge pressure. And on the other end, his iron plates had "pockets" or folds that held iron oxide I think...

I would not advise incorporating anything "aluminum" into your nickel iron battery build. Aluminum is corroded by strong bases like NaOH and even KOH I think. Probably not a good idea at all. As well, open cell metals are VERY expensive i looked into that, its ridiculous, just go buy real Edison batteries (well, the chinese version...)

Closed cell metals wont accept the process, they float basically.



Nano technology is likely a complete waste of thought. Problem is, all that nano work you do gets deposits, and then it's not so "nano" anymore.

See HHOPWR's experiment on youtube regarding what happened to his electrolysis plates using nanoparticle technology. he was NOT impressed and it costed a ****load.

Edison had it about as right as you'll ever get it i figure.

[kcarring]

Quite a number of years ago, there was talk about a company, here in the Okanagan who had developed a method of shredding old car tires and then using something else (sorry don't remeber what it was) as the other electrode, and then building big underground batteries that were really impressive. I have no other details but I remember them saying "Cities could power all their intersections and lighting this way". If anyone knows more about that, I'm curious. Probably was deemed very environmentally unsound or something.

[FRC]

Thankyou very much

That sure was a lot of information. I would not of thought that there would still
be that high of percentage of older nickels in bank rolls these days. Still think
it will be worth holding on to pre 2000 quarters also. Nickel was $24.00 a pound
a couple years ago and at that time I had stock in a nickel company and made some money on it. I was into saving pre 1981 pennies at one time. Because in
1980 when gold hit $800.00 an ounce the amount of copper in a dollars worth was worth more in copper value at the time. Don't know what the current status is with copper at about $4.25 a pound. The only reason I did the pennies
was because I knew people that had truckloads of them. But I never really went
that far or made any money from it.

Thanks again

FRC

[kcarring]

My gut feeling is that zinc is going to be workable, as I said, one company is doing it already. I've given my best shot at NiFe, but I'm only one guy who might have made some big mistakes. My ROI will be if they actually last. I hate lead acid batteries, they are wasteful and get you caught in the buy-again loop. Problem with my setup is that in the space of 8 lead acid batteries, you now occupy the space of a small car. Pretty horrendous. But anyway, Im going to bury them, essentially, in the ground, have their tops sticking up and have table tops above them, and then put one of those portable shed shelter things all around that, so then I won't have such a ridiculous array of wasted space. Another 800 amp hours, is another 800 amp hours... and for solar, that's not bad. My cost on 100 watts solar is $275, so i keep adding a panel here, adding a panel there... it all adds up, I'm at 1100 watts right now, one day I'll be at 4kw, with a little mill in addition to that. Free energy is a reality, no miraculous inventions are required, it's just not free. It requires an investment. It's a choice to invest in a different way of doing things, that is, currently expensive and a pain in the a!@, BUT - it's not like it doesn't exist. The beauty, as I see it, in the NiFe design is, that while it is not a big performer at 1.15-1.2v / cell, it displays no significant memory, can be drained to nothing, left to freeze, it's rebuildable, and is, as far as I can see the truest "Deep Cycle" Battery. It needs contant exercise, loves partial charges, over charges, undercharges - whatever. That's what makes it unique. It is a very poor performer, don't kid yourself.. but it's very renewable, so at the cost of one thing, you get another. It's application for solar is nearly perfect. It's application for EV, potentially pointless - as Edison learned. My experience has been, if you want NiFe, buy some. I'm starting to realize why they cost so much. Having said that, if you want a small bank, and enjoy experimenting, go for it! Just don't do what I did and invest in a lot of materials, and end up having to build batteries the size of cars. TRy something different than my method. For example, a good little experiment for a low storage battery, yet sustainable battery might be:

nickel wire
common allthread bolts, non zinc coated.

-Take your nickel wire and do electroplate deposition of nickelic oxide (used as hydroxide) as found in a pottery supply house, the black stuff; and an iron oxide process for the steel
-Strip your bolts in acid so they are JUST steel
-Do Alkali balance on both of the above, then acidify again with either distilled vinegar or citric acid
-Do an RO water wash and repeat the process for both electrodes
-Use a 1/2" Pvc pipe, with your iron electrode central, wrapped in polymer microfibre shop rag as an isolator or a good membrane of some sort, any kind of chemical resistant (cellulose-like, but non organic)
-Have the bolt central, fibre wrapped with your nickel wire wrapped like coil around that.
-cap the bottom and glue
-have the top cap loose, drilled out for your electrode connections.

* read in: a better stubblefield coil is essentially what your looking at here

You'll have a nice small containment, with not a lot of extra electrolyte and use KOH is your in the USA, NaOH in Canada. KOH is hard to find in Canada, andunless you can get it locally somehow, you'll be paying an extra $35 Dangerous goods fee from purolater to have it shipped.

Problem with this design is there is no additional anode exterior to your cathode so only one side of the nickel wire face will be effective. If some type of iron sleeve could be slipped in the pipe, first, you'd be better off, perhaps if you can buy steel foil (dont use aluminum) and do a deposition of iron oxide on that, maybe you could accomplish it, but... haven't wrapped my head around that one, quite yet.

That of course leads to the idea of building the whole thing in an iron pipe instead, but, what of the mass of the iron, it'll be thick.

You could feasibly make a usuable NiFe battery for emergency lighting that would last you many many many years and it'd be pretty much on the cheap. It wont have a lot of amperage tho, but for a joule thief / trigger transformer light system, it'd be OK.

Let me know if you build anything, would like to see how others could improve my methods.

I would really like to hear of anyone experimenting with alum, too. See John Bedini experiments on replacing H2S04 with alum in a lead acid cell.

[FRC]

Well Done kcaring

You sure have put a lot of work into this. I think KOH is available where I am.
They are supposed to use it in drilling mud for oilwells and I live in an oil town.
I was wondering if Isoutar uses KOH in his kits. He was always posting that
he was looking for people using solar with Edison batteries. Now that someone as knowledgeable as you are here, where is he ? Or maybe you already have been in contact with him. He must have some expertise he could contribute
here.

FRC

[kcarring]

Now that someone as knowledgeable as you are here, where is he ? Or maybe you already have been in contact with him. He must have some expertise he could contribute
here.

FRC

hmm yeah. i don't claim to be knowledgable, in fact i wish I had of read Edison's story before i got started... I've just done lots of experiments, and I'm not terribly scientific about it either... which, in all honestly costs a lot of money, with little return. You do learn some things though and every time I've worked with aluminum, it disappears, corrodes ... so I'm done with aluminum. Copper is interesting. I do want to experiment with copper / nickel. For those just getting started, look into your electromotive Series of elements. Cells using aqueous electrolytes are limited in voltage to less than 2 Volts because the oxygen and hydrogen in water dissociate in the presence of voltages above this voltage.


There's lots of options, but obviously some are derived from materials harder to come by in the dump, than others.

This is a good page:
Battery and Cell Chemistries. Battery primer.

Cheers

[kcarring]

Iron Wire

It just occurred to me, tie wire or "re bar wire" is pretty fundamental in construction. Given it's black appearance I'll "guess" it's mostly iron. It is also annealed.

If you take the guts of a pen, or small tube of some sort that won't be eaten by corrosives, perforate it (a lot) and wrap that with your iron hydoxide treated rebar wire, then use your polymer isolator (I use microfibre cloths from 3M) then your nickelic hydroxide treated nickel wire wrapped around that, another isolator, and one more anode wrap... do that tight enough to go into a 1/2" PVC pipe, you might have a nice compact and somewhat usuable rechargeable battery that could last for decades, and at very least be recyclable, rebuildable.

I find that if you find old irrigation pipe, and just buy the 1/2" end "slip" caps (they are cheap), then glue the bottom one, and drill out the top one for the electrode leads. Then you can just slip it on and off as need be. You can do an environmental seal with gobs of silicone that can easily be removed later.

I haven't done this exact experiment, but my "guess" is that a 16" tall battery will give you about the same amp hours as a modern AAA. Hopefully better tho. I'm just saying it's a lot of work, don't expect modern industry performance. Although your using wire, your surface area to electrolyte ratio is still poor.

point of doing this method over the previously discussed method is that you will have greater surface area on the anode, access to the anode from both sides of the cathode, and similar reactive surface proportions + mass. It should work better and copper wire would be an interesting swap-in for comparative experiments.

[kcarring]

Typical Potters Supply Catalog and Price List:

Green Barn Dry Chemicals

[kcarring]

This gentleman seems to have a potentially better plan than mine, and also, he has found that steel wool, is not actually steel wool, rather it is iron. (Thus the quick rusting! Smart observation). I'll be following his work closely to see how he makes out, and perhaps i'll give another go at it, his way... if his turn out well

YouTube - edsworkshop's Channel

[FRC]

John Bedini

kcarring, I was just over checking the Bedini Ferris Wheel thread, where John Bedini is very involved. He was suggesting to check out LaseSaber's video about electromagnetism with a Stubblefeild coil. LaserSaber sometimes refers
to the coil as a galvanic battery. It occurred to me, why not try nickel wire
if there is such a thing. It would be interesting to see if there would be advantages to a nickel/iron combination or a nickel/copper combination. Just
some thoughts to ponder.

FRC

[IndianaBoys]

It occurred to me, why not try nickel wire
if there is such a thing. It would be interesting to see if there would be advantages to a nickel/iron combination or a nickel/copper combination. Just
some thoughts to ponder.

FRC

FRC<

Dumet Wire/NiFe Wire/Nickel Iron Wire

Dumet Wire/NiFe Wire/Nickel Iron Wire - China dumet Wire,nickel iron wire,electrical resistance strip in Alloy

Product Description

Dumet Wire

Ni 41~43%, Fe Balance

Dumet wire consists of a nickel-iron core in an oxygen-free-high-conductivity copper sheath.

It is available in various surface finishes: Electrically oxidised, borax coated, nickel plated, bare (uncoated).

Borated surface finish Dumet is used in Lead-in-wires for lamps. Dumet forms a glass-to-metal seal while manufacturing these lamps.

The oxidised Dumet is used in Lead-in-wires, diodes and capacitor slug leads application.

Dimeter 0.2mm-0.6mm

IndianaBoys

[FRC]

Thanks IndianaBoys

Thanks for the info IndianaBoys.

FRC

[FRC]

nichrome wire

Nichrome wire is 80% nickel but might get hot in a coil since it is used in toasters and electric heaters.

FRC