another idea for efficient heating
Hi guys! Today I cam up with another idea for how the heat absorption be made more efficient and I came up with the following design (on the picture below).
I saw on Blest bigger units the retort is actually laying horizontal so why not get heated both ends internally.
Soon my father is coming and we will build an experimental unit and I'll start sharing data.
Can you give suggestions please what is best to experiment with initially.
I will start with different types of plastic (PP and HDPE), the with temperature, then with catalyst and different combinations between those too.
Cheers: Ivo
Announcement
Collapse
No announcement yet.
How to turn plastic waste into diesel fuel cheaply
Collapse
X
-
Originally posted by cornishscrimper View PostThanks BB ...I think you have got me a little mixed up with someone else regarding having / running a unit, I have not even started yet, other than gathering a few bits and a vague solidworks drawing. I have already read the forum right through and am on second read taking detailed notes this time. But thankyou for all the safety warnings . Do not worry I am not a gung - ho '' stuff a can with bags and seal it , stuff a pipe and in the top and cook it and look mum I am making fuel''. I think there should be a disclaimer to enter this site ! Seeing what some people have attempted.
Back to study...
Leave a comment:
-
Mistaken ID
Thanks BB and Excalibur for your replies. I know it must be time consuming and even a little annoying at times, being asked questions that are on the thread.
BB I like your story about taking over the 'junk' I would have done the same.
I think you have got me a little mixed up with someone else regarding having / running a unit, I have not even started yet, other than gathering a few bits and a vague solidworks drawing. I have already read the forum right through and am on second read taking detailed notes this time. But thankyou for all the safety warnings . Do not worry I am not a gung - ho '' stuff a can with bags and seal it , stuff a pipe and in the top and cook it and look mum I am making fuel''. I think there should be a disclaimer to enter this site ! Seeing what some people have attempted.
Back to study...
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by cornishscrimper View PostThanks for the swift replies, all these tips help me form a good design and get a picture of what is needed - particularly on the safety front!
I have been looking around with fresh eyes at old junk lying around and have picked some gas cylinders, some redundant 3'' stainless tubing and general threaded bits and pieces and will slowly gather a pile of 'useful' bits.
I said," Don't throw anything out. I will take it as is. It made him happy.
At the last warehouse I was in there was a unit across the alley that had 100 gallons of WMO in plastic buckets that were cracking in the sun. The land lord there knew disposal was going to cost him a large amount of money, so he left it there to soak into the soil.
I said, I'll take it, if you will let me.
The handy man came by with the key to the gate the next day and helped me move all of the buckets into my warehouse space.
Originally posted by cornishscrimper View PostOne more general question if I may, I have a fairly large piece of ground to set up on eventually but the question is how much 'smell' is generated downwind ? If everything is running OK is it undetectable or does it smell like a 100 year old inspection pit / Thanks again
Originally posted by Col View PostThanks for your responses guys.
Regarding pressure relief valves (PRV) - on a boiler the PRV must be exhausted straight up to a minimum height to get the exhaust steam away from people. Not sure of minimum height required but ours must go up about 5m?. I was just thinking about what would happen if there was a blockage in the cracking system and one of these PRV actually opened - look out anyone who is standing nearby I expect we would have an explosive flame exiting the PRV. So...
1) We need to pipe the exhaust from a PRV away from our immediate work area.
2) Q - should we put a flame arrestor in the exhaust pipe of the PRV to ensure no flash back into the cracking reactor?
It could be said the PRV can be plumbed into a low temperature condenser to avoid the explosive flame, but we have seen on this forum operators caught by surprise with problems in or close to the hot reactor. So I think it needs to go there.
Have a cracker of a day guys.
Col
Leave a comment:
-
Now thats what is called "cooking with gas". great job.The first pic of what seems to a succeesfull operation. I have some questions to ask you ,do you have an e-mail address and are you on skype? my e-mail is mtroaier56@gmail.com
regards,
Derek
Leave a comment:
-
Pressure relief valves
Thanks for your responses guys.
Regarding pressure relief valves (PRV) - on a boiler the PRV must be exhausted straight up to a minimum height to get the exhaust steam away from people. Not sure of minimum height required but ours must go up about 5m?. I was just thinking about what would happen if there was a blockage in the cracking system and one of these PRV actually opened - look out anyone who is standing nearby I expect we would have an explosive flame exiting the PRV. So...
1) We need to pipe the exhaust from a PRV away from our immediate work area.
2) Q - should we put a flame arrestor in the exhaust pipe of the PRV to ensure no flash back into the cracking reactor?
It could be said the PRV can be plumbed into a low temperature condenser to avoid the explosive flame, but we have seen on this forum operators caught by surprise with problems in or close to the hot reactor. So I think it needs to go there.
Have a cracker of a day guys.
Col
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by cornishscrimper View PostI have been looking around with fresh eyes at old junk lying around and have picked some gas cylinders, some redundant 3'' stainless tubing and general threaded bits and pieces and will slowly gather a pile of 'useful' bits.
One more general question if I may, I have a fairly large piece of ground to set up on eventually but the question is how much 'smell' is generated downwind ? If everything is running OK is it undetectable or does it smell like a 100 year old inspection pit / Thanks again
The smell can be objectionable if the retort stream is exhausted to atmosphere. You haven't said how you'll heat the retort but if it's by wood, oil or gas etc, then the exhaust gases can be added and burned as heat. Bubblers and other flame traps are advised.
If the heat source is electrical, like Jetijs did then scrubbing the gases has been talked about quite recently.
Leave a comment:
-
Thanks
Thanks for the swift replies, all these tips help me form a good design and get a picture of what is needed - particularly on the safety front!
I have been looking around with fresh eyes at old junk lying around and have picked some gas cylinders, some redundant 3'' stainless tubing and general threaded bits and pieces and will slowly gather a pile of 'useful' bits.
One more general question if I may, I have a fairly large piece of ground to set up on eventually but the question is how much 'smell' is generated downwind ? If everything is running OK is it undetectable or does it smell like a 100 year old inspection pit / Thanks again
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by Col View Post...I find it interesting that some of us here (including myself) are so keen in the initial stage to prove this concept that we will quickly set up a crude system to get a quick batch test done without really considering possible (safety and other) complications of the process we are starting.
About a year ago I wacked a heavy gauge 20L pot on top of a high pressure propane burner, put 3L of WMO in it, welded a couple of baffles into a riser, threaded on a 2" brass Y strainer with mesh removed so I could have a temp probe up in the branched vapour exit. Used copper pipe to direct the vapours to a 20L tank with 6m of 1/8th copper tube coiled inside, with a pump circulating water from a 10KL water tank through the cooling tank (I guess the water temp was about 19 degrees C). I didn't even know what a bubbler was, or purge gas, or what temperature to aim for.
All went well enough, no explosions, and I got some product out, initially water, then a mixture of water and light ends, then the stuff I was after. The product stunk like dirty, burned oil but was much thinner and had a lot of suspended particulate in it, it was very dark. I did not get 3 L of product out as I struggled to maintain a high enough temperature (I had no insulation at all).
Originally posted by Col View PostI turned the unit off at the end of the day part way through the batch. The next day I couldn't get the temperature very high at all, no condensate exited the system.
What I am guessing happened is that I never reached cracking temperatures and so instead distilled off the light fractions on the first day and was left with heavy oil in the pot. Is it the case that the distillation process itself will generate heat? Perhaps it is endothermic to a point then is (partially?) exothermic? If so then the combination of the propane flame and the exothermic reaction involving distillation of the lighter ends may have produced enough heat to maintain the process on day one but day two didn't have any light ends to distill therefor no exothermic heat so day two had less combined heat and couldn't reach a high enough temperature to cause the heavy oil to vapourise. It was over a year ago, no notes or photos, so I do not remember the temperatures reached.
Originally posted by Col View PostAnyway, what might interest you guys is what I got from the condensate. There has been talk about the colour of the fuel being indicative of the type of fuel. But if you look at my photo you'll notice that the two samples are very different in colour, yet came from the same collection pot. Because the condensed fuel stunk and was dark I figured I'd soak it in some activated carbon and see if that cleaned it up. Soaking for 30 mins to a few hours didn't help. I left it over night and drained it through some filter paper to ensure I didn't get carbon fines in the clean sample. What I ended up with was the amber sample. It smelled better and looked great. (the thickness of the dark layer on the bottom of the jar is exaggerated in the image. It is a molasses-like substance, gum from oxidation I guess? Has only appeared gradually over the past year) After the weekend I wanted to dry out the activated carbon to use it for something else so I drained the remaining liquid out (through filter paper again) and ended up with the nice yellow product. I have had both of these samples air tight for over a year, only opening the jars a few times to test the odour of the fuel.
It would seem that either the activated carbon selectively soaked up the longer molecules, leaving just the lighter coloured fuel or cut longer chains into shorter ones, or somehow bleached the fuel. I threw out the original condensate when we relocated the business so only have the very small samples you see in the photo. I do not have sensitive enough scales to perform the BP test and determine what the fuel is comprised of using such a small sample. What are your thoughts? I do not believe the activated carbon was acid washed as I have used it with my fish tank at home and had no ill affect (though it is a big tank, and no I didn't use the same carbon as I put the oil through, didn't think the fish would appreciate it).
I will not be repeating the same system. My next set up will be different having read these many pages. Thank you for your input everyone.
Col
Whereas, the reason why the Spanish commercial WMO recycling refinery, has a fairly clear end product is they are most probably triple distilling it. So, I am currently rebuilding my WMO distillation system to accommodate a number of improvements which will include triple distillation and fractionation on the fly.
Originally posted by Excalibur View PostHi Col. ...I read from the Shell petroleum book, when a light oil is cracked out of the feedstock, the remainder will be heavier. When still more light oil is cracked out, the remainder will go heavier again, and so on.
Originally posted by Excalibur View PostI just picked up a pair of high temperature sight glasses made from borosilicate 15mm thick x 100mm. I plan to install these at the entry to the diesel condenser vessel. To be able to see the flow/ drip rate is a very useful indicator of system health.
Originally posted by rozier56 View PostHi folks, busy reading through all the site,notice mention not to use copper in the process as it will act as catalyst. was planning to make condenser coil with copper coil if this is not suitable what metal shall i be using.Thks
Originally posted by cornishscrimper View PostI am re-reading the whole thing again , but is there a general agreement about how high the pressure inside gets up to? I think I read 1 bar somewhere, but have not found that bit again yet. I am thinking about relief valves.
I presume (a dangerous thing I know) that the back pressure will only be created by the bubbler. Otherwise it would just be naturally aspirated.
Excalibur's comments should be noted carefully. Any valve is going to goop up if it is high up the stream closer to the boiler. However, down stream after cooling the fluid below ambient would work fine as a place to put a check valve. The check valve should be as low a pressure as possible, such as one used for an oxy-acetylene torch.
Leave a comment:
-
Dlanor
Originally posted by rozier56 View PostHi folks, busy reading through all the site,notice mention not to use copper in the process as it will act as catalyst. was planning to make condenser coil with copper coil if this is not suitable what metal shall i be using.Thks
Leave a comment:
-
Originally posted by cornishscrimper View PostI am re-reading the whole thing again , but is there a general agreement about how high the pressure inside gets up to? I think I read 1 bar somewhere, but have not found that bit again yet. I am thinking about relief valves.
I presume (a dangerous thing I know) that the back pressure will only be created by the bubbler. Otherwise it would just be naturally aspirated.
Any notable pressure will raise the boiling point which then requires more heat.
Some folks are using relief valves but think positioning through carefully. Plastic can condense and plug the valve/piping making it ineffective. Boil-over from over eagerness to get the process moving or over filling the retort are likely causes.
Leave a comment:
-
internal pressure
I am re-reading the whole thing again , but is there a general agreement about how high the pressure inside gets up to? I think I read 1 bar somewhere, but have not found that bit again yet. I am thinking about relief valves.
I presume (a dangerous thing I know) that the back pressure will only be created by the bubbler. Otherwise it would just be naturally aspirated.
Leave a comment:
-
rozier56
Hi folks, busy reading through all the site,notice mention not to use copper in the process as it will act as catalyst. was planning to make condenser coil with copper coil if this is not suitable what metal shall i be using.Thks
Leave a comment:
-
Hi Col. Good on you for giving it a go. It's from simple experimenting like this that much can be learnt.
If your WMO was a mixture of light and heavy oils, then the light oil will evaporate off first. Once that fraction has boiled off, then the required boiling temperature will rise to that of the next fraction present.
With regard to cracking oil, I read from the Shell petroleum book, when a light oil is cracked out of the feedstock, the remainder will be heavier. When still more light oil is cracked out, the remainder will go heavier again, and so on.
I just picked up a pair of high temperature sight glasses made from borosilicate 15mm thick x 100mm. I plan to install these at the entry to the diesel condenser vessel. To be able to see the flow/ drip rate is a very useful indicator of system health.
My two sight glasses
My idea of how I'll house the two glasses
Leave a comment:
Leave a comment: