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  • wheels
    replied
    That article is incorrect. They are referring to WEEE plastics which they have incorrectly called Polycarbonate. But WEEE plastics are in fact ABS plastic. WEEE plastics contain flame retardants. The most common is Bromine. Bromine is a Halogen. Bromine is both Toxic and a very powerful corrosive to metals.
    Whether it is ABS or Polycarbonate, if you are processing a plastic that has a flame retardant in it, you will be corroding the inside of your retort and all the pipe work. Secondly, you will have Bromine in your fuel produced. It produces a Redish Brown colour and has a strong smell. If this is not removed, you will damage an engine, but at the least, Bromine will be retarding the burning process of the fuel and you will not have the power that would normally be produced.
    Bromine in very small amounts can used as a disinfectant and has been used in swimming pools, but has been discontinued from such use because of People having serious skin reactions to it.
    DO NOT get the fuel on your skin. You can end up with a very bad skin reaction.
    If you are putting a Halogen via the output gas into the atmosphere, you are running the risk of killing or poisoning people, or at the least, causing damage to the Ozone layer in our atmosphere.
    It is dangerous enough for the amateur processing small amounts of plastics and several of us here are very vocal about safety to ensure people remain safe. But unless you understand what it is you are processing, the Chemistry of such, the Dangers and the potential damage you can cause to environment and peoples Vehicles, YOU SHOULD NOT be trying to do this commercially. You will note that all the commercial Plastic to Fuel plants around the world process two plastic types only. Simply because they are the safest. That is PE and PP. They do not touch any other plastic type due to the dangers of doing such and just one plastic item of a wrong type can contaminate and make useless for sale, 1000ltrs of good fuel.

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  • sunilkm153
    replied
    [QUOTE=Clean Tech;282193]Hello everyone,

    I have been reading this thread for a while now (admittedly not all of it) and i see where a number of ppl have been having success in converting waste plastic into a fuel. I commend those who have been able to achieve their results thus far and applaud this community for the work that they have done in sharing the knowledge gained so far.

    I do have some questions though i wish some of the more experienced members here can help me with.
    1. Has anybody ever spoken to one of those plant managers or chemist that work for a commercial pyrolysis operation and without having them give away trade secrets provide insight as to the best way to do this on a smaller scale?
    2. would members here be willing to join forces to come up with a standard that can guide those to come on how to do this without much trial and error?
    3. Would members be willing to create a diary of sorts that can show the do's and dont's and what has and hasn't worked and why?


    The reason i asked these questions is because I am interested in building a plant at a scale that can process about 1-2 tons of waste plastic per day. I know alot of you are manufacturing to support your own domestic needs but i am looking at a small scale commercial, and rather than going the cheap Chinese way (no offense to any member that may be Chinese) I would much rather make something that we could copy around the world for others to model.(/QUOTE)


    Yes since last one and half years I was working with my own 2 ton/day plant and same concept is now successfully upgraded ( upgraded does not mean extension or addition of few parts to old plant but the old plant is kept in ware house and a totally new one is built ) to 5 ton/day continuous plant and for the same after successful trials commercial production is also started
    Last edited by sunilkm153; 11-15-2015, 08:44 PM.

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  • sunilkm153
    replied
    Originally posted by wheels View Post
    Arrr, yes of course. PC is yet another that should not be Pyrolised. The there are two reasons.
    Firstly, it is made from Bisphenol A (BPA). When it is heated to Pyrolysis temperatures, it produces some very long worded chemicals, abbreviated to TBBA, APP and TBP. APP produces Ammonia which s dangerous. Because PC is an engineering plastic, many products also have a fire retardant incorporated in it. That is the TBBA or tetrabromobisphenol, which produces Bromine, a Halogen.
    http://www.fsrj.org/act/7_nenkai/12-...FSR05/R-14.pdf
    Catalytic and thermal pyrolysis of polycarbonate in a fixed-bed reactor: The effect of catalysts on products yields and composition
    I am not an chemistry person but from my practical experience and after going through many research studies I must say that pyrolysis of polycarbonate can be done safely these above above two links shows pyrolysis of polycabonate can be done safely as wheels mentioned i never experienced ammonia or bromine output during pyrolysis of polycabonate with intermediate solvent dear friends not every thing is practically possible what theoretically written in books but be hopeful opposite is also possible
    Last edited by sunilkm153; 11-15-2015, 08:30 PM.

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  • wheels
    replied
    Originally posted by sunilkm153 View Post
    PC mean polycabonate these are polymers associated with carbonate group to give it temp resistance and impact resistance normally it is called as engineering plastic Yes it may be pyrolysed but simple thermal pyrolysis here will not provide good results If you use ethylene glycol or other glycol series solvent as intermediate you get excellent result
    Arrr, yes of course. PC is yet another that should not be Pyrolised. The there are two reasons.
    Firstly, it is made from Bisphenol A (BPA). When it is heated to Pyrolysis temperatures, it produces some very long worded chemicals, abbreviated to TBBA, APP and TBP. APP produces Ammonia which s dangerous. Because PC is an engineering plastic, many products also have a fire retardant incorporated in it. That is the TBBA or tetrabromobisphenol, which produces Bromine, a Halogen.

    Leave a comment:


  • sunilkm153
    replied
    Originally posted by wheels View Post
    Yes Mild Steel is probably the best material because it is a cheap material and easy to work with.
    Stainless is expensive and not needed for this kind of process.
    There should not be sludge left in the bottom. It should be a dry carbon. It needs to be chipped out. Do not use chemicals.
    i don't understand what you mean re the retort and pyrolytic phase. Can you explain that in different words.
    Yes HDPE and LDPE are both Polyethylene. C2H4. Melting point varies from 115 to 135degC, depending on density type.
    Polypropylene C3H6. Melting points range from 130 up to 170degC because there are several different types.
    PS, as in the White Expanded stuff used as a packaging filler, Insulation in a solid panel form etc, is OK to use, but makes a clear liquid of MethylBenzene. It is more like Petrol than a Diesel.
    ABS can not be used. It contains Bromine or other chemicals used as Fire retardants. It also contains a lot of materials to give it it's solid characteristics. Clay is the most common.
    PET can not be used. It goes from a Solid to a Gas and then when it cools, it returns to it's origin of a White crystalised powder substance.
    PVC is dangerous! It produces a large volume of Hydrogen Chloride and that at 300 to 400 degC is highly dangerous.
    Sorry, what is PC???
    PC mean polycabonate these are polymers associated with carbonate group to give it temp resistance and impact resistance normally it is called as engineering plastic Yes it may be pyrolysed but simple thermal pyrolysis here will not provide good results If you use ethylene glycol or other glycol series solvent as intermediate you get excellent result

    Leave a comment:


  • wheels
    replied
    Originally posted by HK11 View Post
    Hello everyone. I know it's been years since this has ben done and written about but I do have some questions is case someone answers. Can the reactor be made of iron ? I don't see the necesity of a stainless steel one, unless you hace trouble removing sludge from the bottom and then use chemicals. Also, have you made a retort with a pyrolytic phase ? thanks very much. As far as the plastics, I think LDPE , HDPE asn PP are all the same, You shouldn't be getting parafin out of it. I don't and I am not even near perfecting my reactor.Caution, do not use PS , PVC or PET, not even PC, because you'll regret it.
    Yes Mild Steel is probably the best material because it is a cheap material and easy to work with.
    Stainless is expensive and not needed for this kind of process.
    There should not be sludge left in the bottom. It should be a dry carbon. It needs to be chipped out. Do not use chemicals.
    i don't understand what you mean re the retort and pyrolytic phase. Can you explain that in different words.
    Yes HDPE and LDPE are both Polyethylene. C2H4. Melting point varies from 115 to 135degC, depending on density type.
    Polypropylene C3H6. Melting points range from 130 up to 170degC because there are several different types.
    PS, as in the White Expanded stuff used as a packaging filler, Insulation in a solid panel form etc, is OK to use, but makes a clear liquid of MethylBenzene. It is more like Petrol than a Diesel.
    ABS can not be used. It contains Bromine or other chemicals used as Fire retardants. It also contains a lot of materials to give it it's solid characteristics. Clay is the most common.
    PET can not be used. It goes from a Solid to a Gas and then when it cools, it returns to it's origin of a White crystalised powder substance.
    PVC is dangerous! It produces a large volume of Hydrogen Chloride and that at 300 to 400 degC is highly dangerous.
    Sorry, what is PC???

    Leave a comment:


  • HK11
    replied
    Reactor material

    Hello everyone. I know it's been years since this has ben done and written about but I do have some questions is case someone answers. Can the reactor be made of iron ? I don't see the necesity of a stainless steel one, unless you hace trouble removing sludge from the bottom and then use chemicals. Also, have you made a retort with a pyrolytic phase ? thanks very much. As far as the plastics, I think LDPE , HDPE asn PP are all the same, You shouldn't be getting parafin out of it. I don't and I am not even near perfecting my reactor.Caution, do not use PS , PVC or PET, not even PC, because you'll regret it.

    Leave a comment:


  • wheels
    replied
    Originally posted by rozier56 View Post
    On No1. you say no packing required! I find this strange, as all the reflux/distillation columns i know have fillers or tray's in them to help with the distillation process.
    That is not anything to do with the reflux. That is a catalyst. There are various types of catalyst and one is as you described, trays filled with a material. The material is a Catalyst that aids in cracking of heavy fractions to smaller ones, except that the Molecule is divided or "cleaved" at specific points in it's chain, so as a particular type of fraction is created. This is how commercial plants create a specific output as efficiently as possible. One of the big benefits is being able to produce a saturated Hydrocarbon, which means the end of the Molecular chain is closed. That stops the chain form coupling with a free oxygen molecule, which causes the fuel to oxides.
    All you need for a Reflux is a length of tube in which the Gasses can cool slightly and the very heavy molecules can condense and drop back to the reflux to be reheated. Catalytic beds are often very complex mixes of Chemicals and are usually trade secrets. But for the amateur here, things like Clay pots and Zorite are easy materials to use. The big question is whether they do anything. It is not just about having the gasses pass through the material. A catalytic reaction requires heat to activate it and the result is that a proper catalytic bed becomes a very complex addition to the amateur operation.

    Leave a comment:


  • rozier56
    replied
    rozier56

    Originally posted by wheels View Post
    Please note that I have answered each of your questions in Blue.

    I hope that helps.
    On No1. you say no packing required! I find this strange, as all the reflux/distillation columns i know have fillers or tray's in them to help with the distillation process.

    Leave a comment:


  • wheels
    replied
    Originally posted by Clean Tech View Post
    [*]Has anybody ever spoken to one of those plant managers or chemist that work for a commercial pyrolysis operation and without having them give away trade secrets provide insight as to the best way to do this on a smaller scale?[*]would members here be willing to join forces to come up with a standard that can guide those to come on how to do this without much trial and error?[*]Would members be willing to create a diary of sorts that can show the do's and dont's and what has and hasn't worked and why? [/LIST]

    The reason i asked these questions is because I am interested in building a plant at a scale that can process about 1-2 tons of waste plastic per day. I know alot of you are manufacturing to support your own domestic needs but i am looking at a small scale commercial, and rather than going the cheap Chinese way (no offense to any member that may be Chinese) I would much rather make something that we could copy around the world for others to model.
    Firstly, I think you will find all the answers to your first question, if you continue reading the Forum. Pretty much everything has been covered. It is one reason why the place has become a little more quiet now.
    It is not so much about trade secrets. This process is carried out in ruffly 750 Commercial plants around the world. The real issues are not making the Fuel. That is actually the easy part.
    The First thing you need to look into is what laws your country has in regards to doing this. Some countries have no rules and others have stupendous rules. The next issue will be getting that much plastic of usable quality. The biggest cost all the commercial operations have is sorting and cleaning the Plastic stock. The other problem is storage of the Finished fuel. Then you need to be able to ensure the quality of your fuel. If a customer buys your fuel and their car engine fails, you can bet the first person they will blame is you. Even though it may have nothing to do with you, you are likely the one that has to prove it was not your fuel. Then again, it could have been and you may have to pay for the repair or replacement of an engine. So you may require a liability insurance.
    In my Country, to be able to sell a Fuel, it has to be a mix of specific things, so as anybody purchasing a Fuel is getting the same thing anywhere and that it is safe to use in their Car. As soon as a Company produces a Fuel, it has to pay the Gvt a 40% tax. That is before I even sell it.
    Then there are Emissions. In many Countries, you have to prove that what is going out the exhaust to atmosphere is safe. You only need a little bit of the wrong plastic to get into the mix and you could produce some very toxic and Corrosive Chemicals.
    There are many manufactures of these plants already. Plants are available in almost all sizes and are available from many countries other than China.

    Leave a comment:


  • wheels
    replied
    Please note that I have answered each of your questions in Blue.
    Originally posted by rozier56 View Post
    A few questions that interest me!
    1. In the reflux column we are going to try using metal fans{i.e like radiators} placed in a column. This will provide good surface area and not so easy to block up baffle holes as they are long slits.Easy to remove and clean and one can adjust the amount of fans to achieve best results.
    , why? The reflux column is simply a chamber that allows heavier hydrocarbons to drip back down into the main Vessel to be reheated again and hopefully crack to a lighter Molecule. You don't need anything in the chamber/pipe. It is all about getting the temperature right. It needs to be cooler than the main heating vessel.

    2.What about the use of bitumen as a raw material?{not asphalt with sand added}
    could try, but you need a lot of heat. Bitumen is Tar obtained by Petroleum Distillation. It is the last product after all the other chains above it have been removed. i.e, Oil, Diesel, Petrol, Solvents etc. So you have to heat it high enough to crack it further. I have never tried it, but I expect it would be slower to process as it will be likely to cycle a few times through the reflux till the chains are light enough to carry on.
    3.Best plastics to use seem to be the ones with branched molecules?
    There are only three plastics you can safely use. Polyethylene, Polypropylene and Polystyrene. Polystyrene produces ethenylbenzene. It is a product that is more like Petrol, but has an Octane rating of 106.4. Because of such, it can be used by refineries to set the Octane rating of Petrol. It's not much good for anything just on it's own.
    4.If one gets a lot of gas escaping through the exhaust pipe does this mean the condenser is not performing enough---our ones are 1.2 metres long and 100mm in diameter. Filled with eight inner pipes.
    Are the pipes water cooled? Is there a lot of fuel appearing on top of the water in the bubbler? I think that would be the tell tale sign of the condenser not cooling the gasses enough. But if all you have is clear bubbles and and no fuel floating, then you may be creating too much Gas. Gas is created by Heat and Time. In other words, the cracking is too much and you are turning your liquid fuel into too much Gas. You will always get some gas, but it is a case of getting the most in a liquid.
    .
    I hope that helps.

    Leave a comment:


  • Clean Tech
    replied
    Some simple questions

    Hello everyone,

    I have been reading this thread for a while now (admittedly not all of it) and i see where a number of ppl have been having success in converting waste plastic into a fuel. I commend those who have been able to achieve their results thus far and applaud this community for the work that they have done in sharing the knowledge gained so far.

    I do have some questions though i wish some of the more experienced members here can help me with.
    1. Has anybody ever spoken to one of those plant managers or chemist that work for a commercial pyrolysis operation and without having them give away trade secrets provide insight as to the best way to do this on a smaller scale?
    2. would members here be willing to join forces to come up with a standard that can guide those to come on how to do this without much trial and error?
    3. Would members be willing to create a diary of sorts that can show the do's and dont's and what has and hasn't worked and why?


    The reason i asked these questions is because I am interested in building a plant at a scale that can process about 1-2 tons of waste plastic per day. I know alot of you are manufacturing to support your own domestic needs but i am looking at a small scale commercial, and rather than going the cheap Chinese way (no offense to any member that may be Chinese) I would much rather make something that we could copy around the world for others to model.

    Leave a comment:


  • rozier56
    replied
    rozier56

    A few questions that interest me!
    1. In the reflux column we are going to try using metal fans{i.e like radiators} placed in a column. This will provide good surface area and not so easy to block up baffle holes as they are long slits.Easy to remove and clean and one can adjust the amount of fans to achieve best results.
    2.What about the use of bitumen as a raw material?{not asphalt with sand added}
    3.Best plastics to use seem to be the ones with branched molecules?
    4.If one gets a lot of gas escaping through the exhaust pipe does this mean the condenser is not performing enough---our ones are 1.2 metres long and 100mm in diameter. Filled with eight inner pipes.

    Couple of good idea's i have introduced.
    1. introduced second hatch/opening into bottom side of retort, makes for easy cleaning after run.
    2.Filtering finished product through bag filters, firstly ten micron and then 1 micron.Bags are cheap and easy to clean and re-use.product very clean and safe to use.

    Leave a comment:


  • ladanivaca
    replied
    Mirad que pirolisis

    : angel:: angel:https://youtu.be/1Qi54pTAXZ4

    Leave a comment:


  • wheels
    replied
    Originally posted by wheels View Post
    SST cracks not so much because of the heat, but because it work hardens and then fatigue's due to becoming brittle. The fatigue points tend to be around welds. .
    On re reading my post, I realised I didn't word that well. So let me describe it differently. It is the heat that causes expansion and contraction and it os this constant movement that then causes the work hardening. Because a Weld is slightly thicker than the rest of the vessel and may even be a slightly different chemistry that the parent metal, the expansion/contraction can be ever so slightly different at the edge of the weld. This movement then creates a stress point and the metal will crack. Vibration can do exactly the same thing.
    I should also add that excalibur is correct in that there are other SST's that are better with heat than 304 and 316. Only problem with many of them, is that they are very difficult to work with and thus expensive to build a vessel from.
    I keep coming back to plain ole Mild Steel as being the best material, because it is easy to work with and cheap.

    Leave a comment:

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