How to turn plastic waste into diesel fuel cheaply

[pravin]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David007 View Post
hi if put inside of reactor, out pippe from hho generator, (idrogen)
Polyethylene terephthalate categoria I

(C10H8O4)n + n4H2 = nC10H8 + nH2O

i think can cooking C10H8 i think this is hidrocarbur + H2O and water vaporize
in condesser can make diesel+water rpt again the proces to separate disel from water!!!

what you think?
Hi David007. OK so if I can decipher your post correctly, you are asking if you can put the output of a hydrogen generator into your Reactor Vessel, thus flooding the Vessel with Hydrogen.
The answer to that is yes, as long as you do NOT allow any Oxygen to enter the Vessel. There is no more potent Explosive than Hydrogen and Oxygen.

The second question looks like you are thinking that PET (C10H8O4) reacting with N4H2 would give you NC10H8 + NH2O. Well N4H2 is not pure Hydrogen. In fact it is about 96.5% Nitrogen and 3.5% Hydrogen. Plus that reaction you have described means the Hydrogen is reacting with Oxygen and producing the H2O or water. It takes a very loud and a Violent Bang to make H2O like that. That is Combustion and the first problem is you need about 15% Oxygen to support combustion and Oxygen is the last thing you want in the Vessel.

However, all that aside, PET can be Pyrolysed. There is Oxygen in it's Formulae, but the Oxygen is decomposed by the Terephthalac Acid.
However it does not produce any Liquid. It decomposes to mostly Gas. You will not get any liquid Fuel from it.
Also PET which is Polyester, is a sort after commodity and can fetch a very high price. It is used to make Polyester Fibres for Carpets, Clothing, Maylar and Rope. It simply is not a Plastic that is worth spending energy on, it is better to recycle it.
I hope that is understandable to you.


There are many end of cycle PET scrap available. What can be they put to use.

[David007]

Quote:
Originally Posted by David007 View Post
hi if put inside of reactor, out pippe from hho generator, (idrogen)
Polyethylene terephthalate categoria I

(C10H8O4)n + n4H2 = nC10H8 + nH2O

i think can cooking C10H8 i think this is hidrocarbur + H2O and water vaporize
in condesser can make diesel+water rpt again the proces to separate disel from water!!!

what you think?
Hi David007. OK so if I can decipher your post correctly, you are asking if you can put the output of a hydrogen generator into your Reactor Vessel, thus flooding the Vessel with Hydrogen.
The answer to that is yes, as long as you do NOT allow any Oxygen to enter the Vessel. There is no more potent Explosive than Hydrogen and Oxygen.

The second question looks like you are thinking that PET (C10H8O4) reacting with N4H2 would give you NC10H8 + NH2O. Well N4H2 is not pure Hydrogen. In fact it is about 96.5% Nitrogen and 3.5% Hydrogen. Plus that reaction you have described means the Hydrogen is reacting with Oxygen and producing the H2O or water. It takes a very loud and a Violent Bang to make H2O like that. That is Combustion and the first problem is you need about 15% Oxygen to support combustion and Oxygen is the last thing you want in the Vessel.

However, all that aside, PET can be Pyrolysed. There is Oxygen in it's Formulae, but the Oxygen is decomposed by the Terephthalac Acid.
However it does not produce any Liquid. It decomposes to mostly Gas. You will not get any liquid Fuel from it.
Also PET which is Polyester, is a sort after commodity and can fetch a very high price. It is used to make Polyester Fibres for Carpets, Clothing, Maylar and Rope. It simply is not a Plastic that is worth spending energy on, it is better to recycle it.
I hope that is understandable to you.


There are many end of cycle PET scrap available. What can be they put to use.

hi pravin, i not i am chimical expert, but i think i know the hydrogen is more power element 120-140 MJ / kg and petrol or diesel about 40 - 45 Mj / kg.

Potere calorifico - Wikipedia

Ok i understande non use PET and hydrogen!!!!

but what happened if i put Hydrogen in PE/PP or 2,4,5,6
i think make more power fuel, this fuel have more octan???


or the free carbon inside of Reactor Vessel + hydrogen can give me more fuel???

[wheels]

There are many end of cycle PET scrap available. What can be they put to use.

Are you asking that question in relation to us Pyrolysing PET scrap, or are you asking what other uses it can be used for by other Industries. If it is "Other Industries, it can be used for all that I have listed before and many other products made from Polyethelyne.
If the question is about us melting it, the Plastic has many disadvantages and it is not worth using. There is one major problem with PET, it turns from it's Solid Form, straight to Gas at about 260DegC. You get no liquids, just Gas. But the danger is that any Gas in any part of your Machine will turn back to a White Crystal as soon as temperatures below 260DegC are met. As most of the Plant other than the Retort, is below 260Deg, this will result in the entire Plant becoming blocked with a dense White Crystal called Terephthalic Acid.

[David007]

how you shredder!!!!!

i build my "refinery" for plastic, get only pp/pe 10 kg is about 1 m3,
i try to shredder is impossible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
for some day i build it but.....i cant shredder is so...pff
please any idea

[wheels]

i build my "refinery" for plastic, get only pp/pe 10 kg is about 1 m3,
i try to shredder is impossible !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
for some day i build it but.....i cant shredder is so...pff
please any idea

Yes keeping to PP and PE plastics is wise as it makes for less problems.

As for shredding the Plastics, there is no simple easy answer. It is a difficult material to cut up and it takes a lot of Hp.

[David007]

no big problem, how make better??

Yes keeping to PP and PE plastics is wise as it makes for less problems.

As for shredding the Plastics, there is no simple easy answer. It is a difficult material to cut up and it takes a lot of Hp.

i think non is big problem, but need some other ide..
Plactic (HDPE) shreding for ... - YouTube
Homemade Shredder - YouTube

[wheels]

Finished the thread

I have finally read all the way through. Wow, what an epic read.
I have some worries with some of the designs that have been built
A couple of small points to consider. All Tube/Pipe sizes need to be a reasonably decent diameter for two reasons. We do not want back pressures at all. The gasses must flow freely. We do not want any chance of blockage. We do not want to high a speed of gas through the Tubes as this reduces time for coalescing in the distilling vessels and in the cooling though any heat exchangers.
Flash back arrester's and pressure relief. This is slightly concerning also. You need more than just a little pressure relief valve that was designed for nothing more than clean gas such as a Propane Bottle. The Valve needs to be able to relieve all pressure in an emergency and maintaining that flow volume till the vessel cools enough to stop operating. One of the big issues we have is that the Gasses and condensates in the vessel are thick and dirty with Carbon particles and will block any small pressure relief valve in an instant. I suggest people take a look around for large Steam relief valves that have a simple valve face that is lifted under pressure. It needs to operate simply, cleanly and with at least restriction as possible. A small modification will be required to reduce the pressure in which it will release. they work by a simple weight sitting above the seat and that weight would need to be dramatically reduced.
I do not know of any large diameter rupture disk available, but not saying there is not one. But a small relief is no better than no release at all.

Another area of concern is that I think many readers here have Dollar signs in their eyes. Many seem to view this as turning straw into Gold. It simply is not the case. You can not make money from turning waste plastic into Oil, if the simple fact of obtaining Oil/fuel from Waste plastic is the sole reason. Even less so if you are buying the plastic feedstock. You have to have some other motivation behind doing this. So in other words, the Oil/Fuel produced is the added benefit, rather than the main reason. It will always be cheaper to go fill up from the Local Fuel Supplier. So perhaps the cost of dumping the Plastic Waste is expensive and you can now add that saving to the Oil produced.
There has been a great deal of research in Pyrolysis. It is not a new technology, it is as old as the Hills. Many prominent Universities have published a lot of facts and figure on the procedure and the first major point is, the process has about a 20% efficiency. That means that you get a 20% return on Energy, from what you put in. Said in another way, it takes about 4 to 5 barrels of Oil(as seen as worth of energy) to produce one Barrel of Pyrolysed Oil (as seen as energy).

Another area I just want to make really clear. Others have made the same kind of comments. SAFETY!!!
There are some designs that are far from safe. You need to remember one important point. You are heating a very Volatile/Flammable product to over 400DegC in a Metal Vessel and in most cases, that vessel is sitting on top of some form of a naked flame, taking the flame contact point of that vessel well into extremely high temperature figures. A very simple failure in some area WILL result in a catastrophic failure and can Kill or seriously harm. Not only is there a danger to ones self, there is a danger to your property your Neighbor and their Property. I was shocked to see one of these units inside someones Home on top of the Cooking Top
Please think about Safety and think through all the "what if's".
I am also slightly concerned at the larger scale operations that have been set up. Once you go above the small sizes we have represented here on this Forum, you enter a whole new realm of issues. Things to consider are Materials you are constructing from. You may use SST for instance. But what kind of SST is very important. How that Metal has been welded and on going testing of those Welds. Many large scale operations around the World have failed in horrific explosions killing people because a Weld has cracked and Oxygen has entered the Vessel. My big concern is that asking here questions about pipe sizes and flows and cooling etc means you have no properly designed system and no clue as to what you are operating. Once you get into a large machine, there needs to be some properly Engineered design into flow, heat exchanging, adding feedstock and removing the Carbon waste, which by the way, can be extremely hazardous in itself.

[Col]

My big concern is that asking here questions about pipe sizes and flows and cooling etc means you have no properly designed system and no clue as to what you are operating. Once you get into a large machine, there needs to be some properly Engineered design into flow, heat exchanging, adding feedstock and removing the Carbon waste, which by the way, can be extremely hazardous in itself.

Hi Wheels.
One of the great benefits of asking questions and sharing information is not so we can copy blindly without an understanding of the system, but so we can confirm or correct and direct our thoughts on our system. Asking someone with practical, hands on experience in exactly the area of work in which we are about to engage, in my mind, is better than going to an engineer for such a small system. I do not think I could find or afford an engineer with experience in doing what we are learning here.
So, no, I have no properly designed system as far as engineering goes. But the system is based on learning and experience from numerous people over years of real-life experience, both on this forum, and from other relationships I have with people. One person I know is operating a commercial system with throughput of 1000L per hour. He has been happy to talk with me about and show me his system in operation, but in confidence. He contracted an engineer with experience and spent big bucks getting to where he is at the moment. It's interesting to note that he runs his system at pressure, one benefit is that oxygen can't get into the system while there is pressure. So while I have not done calculations on flows and cooling etc we have access to real life experience to guide us. I am putting together a small 20L retort right now and intend to put temperature and pressure gauges at numerous points along the system and sight glasses and gas flow indicators also. As I learn in depth about the system I will upscale.
Thank you for your input to date, and I look forward to what we can all help each other with as we go.
Col

[David007]

I have finally read all the way through. Wow, what an epic read.
I have some worries with some of the designs that have been built
A couple of small points to consider. All Tube/Pipe sizes need to be a reasonably decent diameter for two reasons. We do not want back pressures at all. The gasses must flow freely. We do not want any chance of blockage. We do not want to high a speed of gas through the Tubes as this reduces time for coalescing in the distilling vessels and in the cooling though any heat exchangers.
Flash back arrester's and pressure relief. This is slightly concerning also. You need more than just a little pressure relief valve that was designed for nothing more than clean gas such as a Propane Bottle. The Valve needs to be able to relieve all pressure in an emergency and maintaining that flow volume till the vessel cools enough to stop operating. One of the big issues we have is that the Gasses and condensates in the vessel are thick and dirty with Carbon particles and will block any small pressure relief valve in an instant. I suggest people take a look around for large Steam relief valves that have a simple valve face that is lifted under pressure. It needs to operate simply, cleanly and with at least restriction as possible. A small modification will be required to reduce the pressure in which it will release. they work by a simple weight sitting above the seat and that weight would need to be dramatically reduced.
I do not know of any large diameter rupture disk available, but not saying there is not one. But a small relief is no better than no release at all.

Another area of concern is that I think many readers here have Dollar signs in their eyes. Many seem to view this as turning straw into Gold. It simply is not the case. You can not make money from turning waste plastic into Oil, if the simple fact of obtaining Oil/fuel from Waste plastic is the sole reason. Even less so if you are buying the plastic feedstock. You have to have some other motivation behind doing this. So in other words, the Oil/Fuel produced is the added benefit, rather than the main reason. It will always be cheaper to go fill up from the Local Fuel Supplier. So perhaps the cost of dumping the Plastic Waste is expensive and you can now add that saving to the Oil produced.
There has been a great deal of research in Pyrolysis. It is not a new technology, it is as old as the Hills. Many prominent Universities have published a lot of facts and figure on the procedure and the first major point is, the process has about a 20% efficiency. That means that you get a 20% return on Energy, from what you put in. Said in another way, it takes about 4 to 5 barrels of Oil(as seen as worth of energy) to produce one Barrel of Pyrolysed Oil (as seen as energy).

Another area I just want to make really clear. Others have made the same kind of comments. SAFETY!!!
There are some designs that are far from safe. You need to remember one important point. You are heating a very Volatile/Flammable product to over 400DegC in a Metal Vessel and in most cases, that vessel is sitting on top of some form of a naked flame, taking the flame contact point of that vessel well into extremely high temperature figures. A very simple failure in some area WILL result in a catastrophic failure and can Kill or seriously harm. Not only is there a danger to ones self, there is a danger to your property your Neighbor and their Property. I was shocked to see one of these units inside someones Home on top of the Cooking Top
Please think about Safety and think through all the "what if's".
I am also slightly concerned at the larger scale operations that have been set up. Once you go above the small sizes we have represented here on this Forum, you enter a whole new realm of issues. Things to consider are Materials you are constructing from. You may use SST for instance. But what kind of SST is very important. How that Metal has been welded and on going testing of those Welds. Many large scale operations around the World have failed in horrific explosions killing people because a Weld has cracked and Oxygen has entered the Vessel. My big concern is that asking here questions about pipe sizes and flows and cooling etc means you have no properly designed system and no clue as to what you are operating. Once you get into a large machine, there needs to be some properly Engineered design into flow, heat exchanging, adding feedstock and removing the Carbon waste, which by the way, can be extremely hazardous in itself.

hi wheels, this forume is so nice, but i think a summary.
now you are in other level -expert
if you build now your "refinery" how you answer this question??

NEW MEMBER WHEN FINISH TO READ, FORUM ANSWER THIS QUESTIONNAIRE, "HOW YOU BUILD IT" !!!!
(for all answer, and attach and link to illustrated, the answer)
1
1-a- temperature of reactor?
1-b- tem. of diesel
1-c- tem. paraffin, wax
1-d- tem. of kerosine
1-e- tem. of petrol (gasoline)

2- how is best catalyse about you, what have learn about catalyse?

3- what can do for make more:
3-a- diesel,
3-b- more paraffin, wax????
3-c- kerosine, or petrol (gasoline)???

4- why si best design for you??

5- who is good instrument to use (and chip)
5-a- electrical,
5-b- pid, digital temperature controller
5-c- thermo.
5-d- pressure valve

6- formula for make fire brick (non to buy for cooking it in your perssonial forme)???

[wheels]

Hi Wheels.
One of the great benefits of asking questions and sharing information is not so we can copy blindly without an understanding of the system, but so we can confirm or correct and direct our thoughts on our system. Asking someone with practical, hands on experience in exactly the area of work in which we are about to engage, in my mind, is better than going to an engineer for such a small system. I do not think I could find or afford an engineer with experience in doing what we are learning here.
So, no, I have no properly designed system as far as engineering goes. But the system is based on learning and experience from numerous people over years of real-life experience, both on this forum, and from other relationships I have with people. One person I know is operating a commercial system with throughput of 1000L per hour. He has been happy to talk with me about and show me his system in operation, but in confidence. He contracted an engineer with experience and spent big bucks getting to where he is at the moment. It's interesting to note that he runs his system at pressure, one benefit is that oxygen can't get into the system while there is pressure. So while I have not done calculations on flows and cooling etc we have access to real life experience to guide us. I am putting together a small 20L retort right now and intend to put temperature and pressure gauges at numerous points along the system and sight glasses and gas flow indicators also. As I learn in depth about the system I will upscale.
Thank you for your input to date, and I look forward to what we can all help each other with as we go.
Col

Hi Col, I was referring to someone that was going to jump in the Deep end and build some huge thing as his first off machine and he was asking technical questions that I really don't think anyone here could or should give answers to. it would be far too difficult and dangerous to advise without knowing many more details and even then, it would require an expert Design Engineer. As you know from your Friend with the big plant, it does require some major expert engineering knowledge to design such a plant. OK this guy was not that big, but he was going to start at 500 or 100ltr retort. That is a whole different level. It is not just about what plastics and what heat required anymore, but questions like Pumps and Valves and Sensors and cooling flows and so on. Another example was someone with the 45Kw of heating and then he found his supply could not cope with the demand. Things like that require proper design. I am glad I am not paying his Electric Bill.

[wheels]

hi wheels, this forume is so nice, but i think a summary.
now you are in other level -expert
if you build now your "refinery" how you answer this question??

NEW MEMBER WHEN FINISH TO READ, FORUM ANSWER THIS QUESTIONNAIRE, "HOW YOU BUILD IT" !!!!
(for all answer, and attach and link to illustrated, the answer)
1
1-a- temperature of reactor?
1-b- tem. of diesel
1-c- tem. paraffin, wax
1-d- tem. of kerosine
1-e- tem. of petrol (gasoline)

2- how is best catalyse about you, what have learn about catalyse?

3- what can do for make more:
3-a- diesel,
3-b- more paraffin, wax????
3-c- kerosine, or petrol (gasoline)???

4- why si best design for you??

5- who is good instrument to use (and chip)
5-a- electrical,
5-b- pid, digital temperature controller
5-c- thermo.
5-d- pressure valve

6- formula for make fire brick (non to buy for cooking it in your perssonial forme)???

His David007. I am not sure i want to be considered an expert. There is still a lot I am learning also.
So firstly your Q1 of temperatures.
I think the various temperatures has been well discussed here already. All I can add is that in one University study, they looked at the Quantity of output at certain temperatures. The test started at 80DegC and went up in units of 10's all the way to 1000DegC. They found that the outputs of Hydrocarbons peaked at 460DegC. After 460Deg, the output started to drop again, which I found very interesting. I am not sure why that happens. They did not test what types of hydrocarbons were being produced at what temperature, but just the total emissions at the various Temps.

Q2, the catalyst. This is a biggy and I am actually would like to make a whole new post about that. I am currently studying Catalysts and just why it is that certain Catalysts and combinations of such, work on Hydrocarbons better than others. What i have so far discovered is that even the experts are not completely sure either. Much of the research has been trial and era and the fact that the oil Industry is over 100yrs old and that trial and era has been passed down through those years.
What I do note through the thread is that there is certain some confusion in when a catalyst is operating as one and when it is operating as a filter. Also, just because a Material acts as a catalyst, does not always mean it is doing the correct job.
so this is a subject I will post on later.

Q3, is related in a way to Q2, but there is confusion on what can and can't be made with the materials used. It is also a little more complex with two very different Feedstocks being plastics and WMO used by the members here. I will speak for plastics only. Re PE and PP Plastics, they are not made from just one Hydrocarbon. They all have a range of Hydrocarbons called Olifins which can also be called Parrafins. When we melt the Plastics again, we allow them to fall apart back to those hydrocarbons. in the True sense, they are not being cracked, although that is a term that is often given to the process. True Cracking is when a Hydrocarbon goes through a Chemical reaction to be broken apart and that is usually done by a Catalyst. The not quite so correct term of cracking due to Heat, is more correctly called Distillation, except we haven't separated the chains into any weights till they reach our Still points. I feel there is a lot of confusion on the Forum with these terms and perhaps those with the experience can start trying to use the correct terms in the correct places to try and educate us all as to what means what where.

Q4, sorry I don't understand what si means

The other questions I think can be answered by many others here far better and I think a lot of that info already exists in the thread.

[David007]

His David007. I am not sure i want to be considered an expert. There is still a lot I am learning also.
So firstly your Q1 of temperatures.
I think the various temperatures has been well discussed here already. All I can add is that in one University study, they looked at the Quantity of output at certain temperatures. The test started at 80DegC and went up in units of 10's all the way to 1000DegC. They found that the outputs of Hydrocarbons peaked at 460DegC. After 460Deg, the output started to drop again, which I found very interesting. I am not sure why that happens. They did not test what types of hydrocarbons were being produced at what temperature, but just the total emissions at the various Temps.

Q2, the catalyst. This is a biggy and I am actually would like to make a whole new post about that. I am currently studying Catalysts and just why it is that certain Catalysts and combinations of such, work on Hydrocarbons better than others. What i have so far discovered is that even the experts are not completely sure either. Much of the research has been trial and era and the fact that the oil Industry is over 100yrs old and that trial and era has been passed down through those years.
What I do note through the thread is that there is certain some confusion in when a catalyst is operating as one and when it is operating as a filter. Also, just because a Material acts as a catalyst, does not always mean it is doing the correct job.
so this is a subject I will post on later.

Q3, is related in a way to Q2, but there is confusion on what can and can't be made with the materials used. It is also a little more complex with two very different Feedstocks being plastics and WMO used by the members here. I will speak for plastics only. Re PE and PP Plastics, they are not made from just one Hydrocarbon. They all have a range of Hydrocarbons called Olifins which can also be called Parrafins. When we melt the Plastics again, we allow them to fall apart back to those hydrocarbons. in the True sense, they are not being cracked, although that is a term that is often given to the process. True Cracking is when a Hydrocarbon goes through a Chemical reaction to be broken apart and that is usually done by a Catalyst. The not quite so correct term of cracking due to Heat, is more correctly called Distillation, except we haven't separated the chains into any weights till they reach our Still points. I feel there is a lot of confusion on the Forum with these terms and perhaps those with the experience can start trying to use the correct terms in the correct places to try and educate us all as to what means what where.

Q4, sorry I don't understand what si means

The other questions I think can be answered by many others here far better and I think a lot of that info already exists in the thread.

hi wheels
Q4 who you think, is best design "refinery" -give can give your opinion

Q1 your degres is Fahrenheit °F or °C degres Celcius????

i learn too in this great forum, and i am in 70 pages, when i finish all,
answer all this for confrontation my idea,
for make the best "rafinery" on this forum

[wheels]

hi wheels
Q4 who you think, is best design "refinery" -give can give your opinion
[COLOR="Blue"I am not sure there is a "best" design as suich, rather there are designs that suit different needs and different [/COLOR]
There simply is no one best design, but there are many bad designs. Or you could say, the best designs are those completely automated and continually feed, but we can't afford those, so we have to compromise, Hence the comment that each design suits different needs. Those needs are set by each indiviuals budget, access to materials, Feedstock type and just what one intends to do with the finished product.

Q1 your degres is Fahrenheit °F or °C degres Celcius????
Celcius

i learn too in this great forum, and i am in 70 pages, when i finish all,
answer all this for confrontation my idea,
for make the best "rafinery" on this forum

the last few pages make for some very interesting reading.bb

[David007]

the last few pages make for some very interesting reading.bb

thanks bro. but i like to read all.... is mother of lore, father of bored
i dont non if can understande

[wheels]

I was pickling some welds on the Retort Cap and it will then get wrapped in it's Thermal blanket, so though I better show some pics before it is all covered up.
So here is the Cap to the Retort Vessel and it has on top a Cyclone that also doubles as the Reflux chamber. Hopefully the Carbon dusts and heavy components will be returned via the bottom of the cyclone where inside the Cap, there is a small Cup that will be filled with Oil and act as a back flow preventer, so as gasses do not flow up the Cyclone the wrong way, negating it's operation. on top of the cyclone is the Catalyst containment Vessel. This has a Wire Basket that the catalyst will be held in, so as it will be easy to pick it out of the container, dump the old catalyst, refill and fit back in again. A pipe is about to be fitted to the top of that container, which will lead down to the entry point of the distilling tower.