How to turn plastic waste into diesel fuel cheaply

[Excalibur]

David007
Re: copper gasket
Forum talk about copper gaskets on pages 69 & 91.
I use a copper gasket at the top flange of the reflux tower and where a sealing washer is required i.e. thermocouple adaptor in retort flange.
My retort flange uses a v-groove seal though I'd have no hesitation using solid copper gasket there as well. Vintage motorcycles were commonly factory fitted with solid copper gaskets till as late as the 70's and these really 'stood the test of time'. Common practice was to anneal a gasket by heating to cherry red hot and allowing to cool or optionally quenching. This softened it ready for re-use. A retort runs hotter than a motorcycle engine though copper appears to be more than up to the task.

[David007]

band heater, with mica???

i read all, and i have understande more in this forume.
i see to bay band heater, but need 2-4 week to come in me, is possible to build the band heater, with mica for this process, hight temperture????

what tipe of gasket can use??? copper

[wheels]

[QUOTE=Babataku;256389]

Wheels,

I just dont agree that this process uses more energy that it creates as you suggested in your earlier post. Yes you will need some initial fuel to get started but after that its self sustaining. in fact in my outfit when i first started i just bought 20Ltrs of Diesel from the pump and upto now i just use whatever i make. so to me its self sustaining...i use about 15% of what i produce.

Well it would be foolish of me to argue against something you are finding to work in practice. I will always stand to be corrected. As I said earlier, I am not an expert and it is possible, in fact it would have to be certain then, that this process is a different physical process than I am understanding it as.
The Laws of Physics are true and unbreakable (unless you play in the world of Quantum Theory) and simply, you can not make something from nothing, Or, you can not produce more energy than what you put in. So this must mean that Pyrolysis is a process different to what I understand it as. So I shall do some more research on that point. However the Losses I have listed will not change. They are all valid losses, but the actual amoubnt of energy lost will vary from plant to plant depending on things like insulation and design etc.

[Babataku]

[QUOTE=wheels;256356]

Wheels,

I am not sure i fully understand your theory here...My outfit uses about 10 -15% of the produced fuel to run it per batch. If i process 100Kg per Batch i get about 100Ltr of Fuel and it only costs me about 15-20Ltr of the same fuel. so in the end i get a about 80Ltrs per batch from 20Ltrs of fuel to run the batch plus the cost of the waste plastics. I am using a diesel burner for heat supply which runs perfectly well on the produced fuel.

if i remember well Excallibur used about 20Lts in his 12hour run and in the end he had about 260Ltrs of produced fuel which is a net result of about 240Ltrs from combusting 20Ltrs of the same produced fuel. So on average he used about 1.7Ltrs of fuel and yielded about 20Ltrs of fuel per Hour.

You must have used Fuel from a previous run to start the initial heating. Have you considered that in your calculations?

Wheels,

I just dont agree that this process uses more energy that it creates as you suggested in your earlier post. Yes you will need some initial fuel to get started but after that its self sustaining. in fact in my outfit when i first started i just bought 20Ltrs of Diesel from the pump and upto now i just use whatever i make. so to me its self sustaining...i use about 15% of what i produce.

[wheels]

i think to use co2
1- to open co2 valvul, in the first moment, my refinery non have oxigen before 10 min.
2- to close valvul sphere, to make boil with more pression for make fast the 400 grade C.

i think to reduction the time of process.

what bar you think can make in side??

Hi David. Sorry if I am not understanding correctly, but if I do understand, your questions are,
You wanting to know if Co2 is OK to use. Yes it is.
1- Unless the Co2 is cheap, you don't want to waste it. But you also want to know you have displaced all the Oxygen from your Retort. The Easiest way to know is to use a naked Flame at the outlet of your machine. When the Flame goes out, you know that the Co2 has filled the Retort and flowed all the way to the end of your machine, displacing all the oxygen.
2- Do not heat the Retort under any pressure. Pressure raises the Boiling point of the Plastics/WMO or whatever you are using. You need to keep it at normal atmosphere.
I hope that helps and I hope that is understandable.

[David007]

add valvul sphere?

i think to use co2
1- to open co2 valvul, in the first moment, my refinery non have oxigen before 10 min.
2- to close valvul sphere, to make boil with more pression for make fast the 400 grade C.

i think to reduction the time of process.

what bar you think can make in side??

[wheels]

[QUOTE=Babataku;256332]Wheels,

I am not sure i fully understand your theory here...My outfit uses about 10 -15% of the produced fuel to run it per batch. If i process 100Kg per Batch i get about 100Ltr of Fuel and it only costs me about 15-20Ltr of the same fuel. so in the end i get a about 80Ltrs per batch from 20Ltrs of fuel to run the batch plus the cost of the waste plastics. I am using a diesel burner for heat supply which runs perfectly well on the produced fuel.

if i remember well Excallibur used about 20Lts in his 12hour run and in the end he had about 260Ltrs of produced fuel which is a net result of about 240Ltrs from combusting 20Ltrs of the same produced fuel. So on average he used about 1.7Ltrs of fuel and yielded about 20Ltrs of fuel per Hour.

You must have used Fuel from a previous run to start the initial heating. Have you considered that in your calculations?

[fox32]

[/quote]Are energy to make our Energy, than what we can possibly get back out of it. A simple law of physics and from one University Test Result, they worked out that there is a efficiency of only about 20% to maybe 30% at the most. So if you put that into Barrels of Oil, (which is what they did), it takes about 4 to 5 Barrels of Oil worth of energy to get 1 Barrel of Oil of reclaimed energy back. Whether that one Barrel of Oil can cover the costs of the 4 to 5 barrels of energy expelled to produce the 1, depends on what you pay at the Pump for a ltr of Fuel. Here in NZ, we currently pay NZ$2.17/ltr for 91 Oct Petrol/Gasoline and NZ$1.57/ltr for Diesel.[/QUOTE]

So you are saying that we use more fuel in the process, than we get out of it? I don't think it goes just like that, after my calculations, as Bakbatu said above me, it is quite fesable and economicaly viable.

Really lucky, with gas prices, if i lived there i wouldn't bother to make fuel. Here is 6.44 lei for Gas and 6.60lei(1.50euro) for diesel.

[Babataku]

Firstly, we will leave out the fact that we have to have fuel(energy) to provide the heat to get the process started. We will add that in later. Lets pretend that in this example, as soon as we create the heat under the Retort the Fuels(total outputs including Gas) instantly start coming out the output. Lets now take that Fuel output and use it to heat the Retort, so we have a Total 100% feedback of Retort producing Fuel to heat Retort. At this point we also need to pretend that there is no escape of heat energy anywhere, lets say everything is 100% efficient. We will bring those losses in later as well.
As you know, the process is not combustion (which is an Exothermic reaction resulting in oxidation) and produces energy. This process is called "Endothermic". It requires an energy input to create the work of turning the Plastic into it's various constituents. The heat energy in this case is not a result of a reaction, it is the cause of the Reaction and we are the ones providing the Energy.
So if we take all that fuel and combust it under the Retort to heat the plastic, the process will actually slowly decrease. The fuel output will slowly drop away. The energy we are trying to supply to the Retort will decrease till the process eventually stops completely. It's a law of physics. If by some chance it could sustain itself, you have just created Perpetual Motion and we know that can not happen.
.

Wheels,

I am not sure i fully understand your theory here...My outfit uses about 10 -15% of the produced fuel to run it per batch. If i process 100Kg per Batch i get about 100Ltr of Fuel and it only costs me about 15-20Ltr of the same fuel. so in the end i get a about 80Ltrs per batch from 20Ltrs of fuel to run the batch plus the cost of the waste plastics. I am using a diesel burner for heat supply which runs perfectly well on the produced fuel.

if i remember well Excallibur used about 20Lts in his 12hour run and in the end he had about 260Ltrs of produced fuel which is a net result of about 240Ltrs from combusting 20Ltrs of the same produced fuel. So on average he used about 1.7Ltrs of fuel and yielded about 20Ltrs of fuel per Hour.

I am not sure i understand your theory or explanation here...

[wheels]

I made this following comment to Excalibur via an Email to him. I have edited it slightly and posted it here, because I think it is important to understand.

Costs, will vary around the world with things like what people pay for what ever energy they use and that includes what they pay for Fuel from the Pump and what they Pay for Fuel to heat their Retort and if they have to pay for the feedstock or not.
If you look at it from a slightly different angle, it makes a little more sense.
Firstly, we will leave out the fact that we have to have fuel(energy) to provide the heat to get the process started. We will add that in later. Lets pretend that in this example, as soon as we create the heat under the Retort the Fuels(total outputs including Gas) instantly start coming out the output. Lets now take that Fuel output and use it to heat the Retort, so we have a Total 100% feedback of Retort producing Fuel to heat Retort. At this point we also need to pretend that there is no escape of heat energy anywhere, lets say everything is 100% efficient. We will bring those losses in later as well.
As you know, the process is not combustion (which is an Exothermic reaction resulting in oxidation) and produces energy. This process is called "Endothermic". It requires an energy input to create the work of turning the Plastic into it's various constituents. The heat energy in this case is not a result of a reaction, it is the cause of the Reaction and we are the ones providing the Energy.
So if we take all that fuel and combust it under the Retort to heat the plastic, the process will actually slowly decrease. The fuel output will slowly drop away. The energy we are trying to supply to the Retort will decrease till the process eventually stops completely. It's a law of physics. If by some chance it could sustain itself, you have just created Perpetual Motion and we know that can not happen.
Even in an abnormal World of Physics, such as creating a super conductor by taking an electrical conductor down to absolute zero, you can place energy into a loop and it will keep running around the loop, but the best we can hope for is that it can only ever sustain itself. If we maintained our supercold absolutely no loss environment, then the best we could ever hope for is that the Energy output would equal the energy input and the process would sustain itself, but it could never produce excess energy. As soon as we took energy from the device, it would fail.
Following so far??
Back to our Pyrolysis machine.....Now we can bring in our losses and oh boy are there lots of them. So firstly, there is energy loss in producing the Heat. The laws of Physics means that producing energy takes energy. A simple explanation is say Friction. The reason why you burn Fuel to move your Vehicle along the Road is due to resistance. Resistance from the mechanical Movement through to traction on the Road. If you could remove all friction from the Vehicle o the Road, the Fuel consumption would dramatically reduce. But you would not be able to get moving, because the Wheels won't grip. If you did manage to get moving, you would not be able to turn, or Stop. So resistance is a necessary Evil. So moving along,
Transferring energy from heat source to Vessel will have a loss. Then there is energy input into heating the Steel Vessel itself. Then a loss due to transmission through the vessel, because it is not super efficient at transferring heat. Then there is energy loss between Vessel and Plastic, because they don't have a perfect interface. Plastic is quite insulative, or poor at Heat Transfer, so the Plastic melt wastes a lot of energy. There is loss due to the fact that the Plastic may not be 100% pure and 100% clean, so some particles are not going to be plastics turned into fuel, but will still be robbing energy. Then we have losses through insulation etc.
Then the Plastics finally give up their Ghosts and head off in the direction of the pipe. Along the way, the Gasses are loosing energy and the first thing it meets is the Reflux, where it cools even more and some of it is returned to the retort to be heated again, thus taking some more energy to bring that cooler Gas back up to temperature and back to the reflux.
Then there is the left overs. So we already know that in the best cast scenario, we get .86grams of Liquid Hydrocarbon product from 1Kg of Plastic, so we have a loss there. We have Carbon and other impurities lying in the bottom or the Retort, which is part of the missing weight and then we have Gasses we can't use and expel to atmosphere, so out the exhaust that energy goes, but lets hope we can use it to help heat the Retort.
Then we add in the external to the process costs. So first of all, we all need to look at what is spent on materials to make the Machine in the first place and future costs of replacement of anything as it wears. Most likely the Retort and elements etc.
Plus this is where we add in the cost of energy to heat the system. Then additional equipment and labor for things like Filtering for example. Whatever may need to happen to the end products to make them usable. That is going to take both Consumables, equipment and Labor, of which in some situations, Labor needs to be considered. So "energy" can also be measured as a financial Cost.
So in the end, it takes more energy to make our Energy, than what we can possibly get back out of it. A simple law of physics and from one University Test Result, they worked out that there is a efficiency of only about 20% to maybe 30% at the most. So if you put that into Barrels of Oil, (which is what they did), it takes about 4 to 5 Barrels of Oil worth of energy to get 1 Barrel of Oil of reclaimed energy back. Whether that one Barrel of Oil can cover the costs of the 4 to 5 barrels of energy expelled to produce the 1, depends on what you pay at the Pump for a ltr of Fuel. Here in NZ, we currently pay NZ$2.17/ltr for 91 Oct Petrol/Gasoline and NZ$1.57/ltr for Diesel.

[wheels]

Wheel,s great insight, as always, and very nice work with your shiny reactor! I hope is will perform even better than it looks. Any particular designes strike you as extra dangerous? thanks.

Anything that does not have a Pressure release and that release must be able to cope with expelling the gasses cleanly, with sufficient quantity, without blocking, should it operate.
Anything that is made from a thin walled vessel, like a Drum, when it sits upon a Naked flame worries me somewhat.
Anything that has nothing more than a simple bubbler for the waste gasses and oils. The fumes are highly corrosive and Toxic.
Many plants, even well designed ones operating in an enclosed space, often beside someones Home. If there is a Fire, someone could lose their Home and chances are, Insurance may not cover it.
Slightly aside from what we are doing, I am very cautious of many claims some people make on Youtube/Internet. They are often trying to promote their own machines or trying to raise Money in some way, like Crowd Funding. There are a stunning number of people making outrages claims of producing free energy in some way shape or form.
There are a few rules of thumb we should all keep in the back of our minds.
First is, "there is nothing new under the Sun". Even this Pyrolysis idea is very old. Pyrolysis goes back hundreds of years. It is just that Plastic as a Fuel is new, it's not the process that's new.
There are no conspiracies with energy technology. Companies are falling over themselves to find a technology that puts them out into the market. Oil companies do not buy technology to hide it and all that crap you hear all the time. Companies look at bottom line Profit, nothing else. If someone told an Oil company they could make more money making marshmellows with their Oil rigs, you will be assured they were producing Marshmellows with Oil rigs by next Tuesday.
Another rule is, you can not get something from nothing. Perpetual motion is not possible. It breaks all the laws of physics. It takes energy to produce energy and you will always have a loss doing so. It's called "Work done".

[fox32]

Wheel,s great insight, as always, and very nice work with your shiny reactor! I hope is will perform even better than it looks. Any particular designes strike you as extra dangerous? thanks.

[Heat Pumps]

Incredibly useful information. Surely this can be put to use in developing countries and larger countries with huge excess of plastic wastes can use this as a renewable way to help others? Surely? Or is that just to cynical?

[wheels]

There is one major problem with PET, it turns from it's Solid Form, straight to Gas at about 260DegC. You get no liquids, just Gas. But the danger is that any Gas in any part of your Machine will turn back to a White Crystal as soon as temperatures below 260DegC are met. As most of the Plant other than the Retort, is below 260Deg, this will result in the entire Plant becoming blocked with a dense White Crystal called Terephthalic Acid.

@ WHEELS AND DAVID is it possible to recover Terephaltic acid as it fetches a good sale value.

Yes of course, but it is not a straight forward exercise and you need some well designed equipment and some really high standards in operational Safety ad Chemical handling. It is not an exercise any basic back yard operation should attempt. It's not that the Acid itself is dangerous, it is reasonably safe, but it is operation that needs care.
I think it is also important to say, just because it is a comodity, it may ot have a market. The Industry using it will require a provable quality of the Chemical. Industries will not take risks on millions of Dollars of other products by just dropping in a material that is said to be something. They need to know the quality, grade, is it really what it is said to be and so on. Plus these Industries are using Chemicals in Tons. They most likely would not be interested in some small quantity produced in a backyard operation that can not have a guarantee of quantity and consistency of supply

[rozier56]

Thks Beyond, just what i needed,you always a great help.