How to turn plastic waste into diesel fuel cheaply

[tony steinke]

sikander, this is what you missed, in reading the posts on this thread. AND, use a "pressure relief valve" on your reactor. The vapor should be at low pressure; your reactor almost exploding (you came close!) was because of a build-up of pressure; you don't want that to happen, which is why you use a pressure relief valve; you can get one off of a water heater. Also, DON'T do this in your basement; best to do it out in the open, with plenty of ventilation, and no flamable structures nearby.

On the big bales; much better price than what I've found! Although I haven't inquired as to larger quantities. Might consider what I wrote earlier, about using a trash compactor to compress wet paper (waste paper, shredded) to make big "briquets" which could be used to cook your big bales. Just a thought,..Gonna need a lot of heat, to heat up a reactor with 1 or more of those bales in it. Jim

Yes! The briquets are a great idea. Thanks. I am looking forward to needing a lot of heat. And the valve goes without saying. I just wanted to make sure he understands why his system failed so badly.

[sikander999]

My first success(or now better I say my first stupidity )

You need to put a "pressure relief valve" in the system; you can scavage one off an old water heater. All of the points posted above are valid, as well. Bear in mind this SHOULD be a LOW pressure system; The vapor should NOT be at high prsessures; thats why you have a "Pressure relief valve", so that if it DOES develop high pressures, the relief valve vents the gas, relieving the pressure, before something blows up, maybe killing/injuring you or others, and destroying your house, (which is why you DON'T want to be doing this in your basement! Another reason is because SHOULD you develop high pressure, this pressure relief valve has to vent the FLAMABLE gas to the APTNOSPHERE, NOT into the enclosed space of your basement, where it can be ignited by the flame your using to heat your reactor.)

PLEASE,PLEASE re-think your whole design! Start at the begining, and design it from scratch, incorporating SAFETY as a prime consideration! I realise you are working on a very limited budget, but blowing yourself up is not going to benefit you or anyone else. And, it will also give this very do-able technology a bad name, and cause laws/regulations to be enacted, which will prevent home experimenters/ do-it-yourselfers from being able to develop this technology, and restrict it to being 'exploited' by the big corporations.

So, don't be selfish,shortsighted, harm yourself and others, and give us and this technology a bad name! "Short cuts make for long delays".

This may seem harsh, but you have been both incredibly lucky and incredibly stupid, in your experiments, so far. Your posting questions about the color of the product produced leads me to the conclusion that you still don't grasp just how close you came! And, this was totally FORESEEABLE, because although you say you read this whole thread, you obviously didn't get several key concepts which ARE in this thread.

If you want to compete for the Darwin awards, (and take yourself out of the gene pool), be my guest, but PLEASE find some other method! Jim

Hi,

First of all thanks to dutchdivco,tony steinke both for your valuable and honest (though a bit harsh as dutchdivco said ) comments but honestly now after getting your remarks I felt a sort of shiver in my body and really feel that I was lucky enough that the whole thing did not explod but honestly I wasnt aware that my vessel(reactor) might even explode as I am not that technical like you or other senior members of the group but still I tried and just was lucky enough that I escaped from paying the price for my stupidity.Dutchdivco, you are right that I am working with an limited budget but still I will strictly follow what I missed on this thread(and your advice too) and use an pressure relief valve on my reactor.Second thing is that I did this completly in an open space outside my house.but I took the pictures of my reactor inside my house the next day.Tony,thanks for the advice for using two levels of steel plates.
"Bear in mind this SHOULD be a LOW pressure system; The vapor should NOT be at high prsessures; thats why you have a "Pressure relief valve", Dutchdivco,if this doesn't sound stupid,will you please guide me as to what should be the pressure there inside the reactor while cooking and at what pressure the pressure relife valve should relive the pressure.Also guide me what will be the ideal thickness of the reactor sheet if I plan to cook 10 kg of plastic and also the height and the internal diameter of the reactor too.
After taking care of all the security measures I will let you know the results.
Thanks again for the valuable comments.

[imakebiodiesel]

Vijay, you had a lucky escape.
The suggestion about a pressure release valve is a good one, but in my experience most water boiler valves release at a minimum of 3 bar ( 40psi). The paint tin you are using could not withstand even 10psi. Also the more you use it the weaker the seams will become. A metal utube as shown in the picture below will provide low pressure release. It should be constructed from steel pipe 1" diameter minimum. The u tube should be filled with waste motor oil. The more you fill it the higher the pressure release threshold.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Your pipe at the top of the reactor is too small and seems to have a kink in it that makes it even smaller. For that size of reactor I would suggest a minimum of 1 1/4" pipe.
To conserve heat the reactor should be covered in a jacket of fire proof insulation and some way of measuring the temperature inside the reactor is needed to tell you what is going on.
The darkening you mention is oxidation and is due to the fuel containing unsaturated molecules. A catalyst will help with this and using more PE and less PP will also reduce the effect.

[sikander999]

Thanks

Vijay, you had a lucky escape.
The suggestion about a pressure release valve is a good one, but in my experience most water boiler valves release at a minimum of 3 bar ( 40psi). The paint tin you are using could not withstand even 10psi. Also the more you use it the weaker the seams will become. A metal utube as shown in the picture below will provide low pressure release. It should be constructed from steel pipe 1" diameter minimum. The u tube should be filled with waste motor oil. The more you fill it the higher the pressure release threshold.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Your pipe at the top of the reactor is too small and seems to have a kink in it that makes it even smaller. For that size of reactor I would suggest a minimum of 1 1/4" pipe.
To conserve heat the reactor should be covered in a jacket of fire proof insulation and some way of measuring the temperature inside the reactor is needed to tell you what is going on.
The darkening you mention is oxidation and is due to the fuel containing unsaturated molecules. A catalyst will help with this and using more PE and less PP will also reduce the effect.

Hi,
Thanks a lot for the comments and suggestions imakebiodiesel.First I am going to try this now with an 4lt Galvanised Iron sheet can and will put only 2 kg of PE to cook.Also want to know if its OK if I use an 1/2" galvanised pipe around 4feet in length as an condensing pipe? also will use the pressure release valve(the utube )as you described above.I will get one other GI sheet brazed at the bottom as suggested by tony.Please guide me if I am missing something else.

[tony steinke]

Hi Vijay, I'm afraid you completely misunderstood me about the 2 steel plates. The lower plate sits above the flame. This plate should be broader than the flame itself. The upper plate then sits 2 inches above the lower plate and serves as a platform for the reactor. The reactor should never be in direct contact with the flame. Steel changes at the moleclar level everytime it is heated and cooled. The less heat stress on the reactor, the better. The whole concept is to even out the heat inside the kiln so that you can maintain 400 c throughout. You had your reactor directly on the flame making it impossible to maintain even heat. I'm convinced that this was at least partly responsible for the spike in pressure, and the fact that your exit pipe was too small. A relief valve is a must, but should not activate in a well designed system. I'm sorry to say that I don't think you understood anything that I wrote. I'll try to do a better job next time.

[imakebiodiesel]

I doubt if you will be able to get even a kg of waste plastic into a 4 litre can. My little reactor is 5 litre and I process 1/2 a kg at a time. I could probably squeeze 1 kg in but it would fill the reactor to the top which is not safe.

1/2 inch pipe is not large enough, make it inch or even 1 1/4". Soldered or brazed containers will not last long and there is always a danger they will split open during reaction. Better to get someone to weld a robust steel reactor container for you.

[sikander999]

Hi Vijay, I'm afraid you completely misunderstood me about the 2 steel plates. The lower plate sits above the flame. This plate should be broader than the flame itself. The upper plate then sits 2 inches above the lower plate and serves as a platform for the reactor. The reactor should never be in direct contact with the flame. Steel changes at the moleclar level everytime it is heated and cooled. The less heat stress on the reactor, the better. The whole concept is to even out the heat inside the kiln so that you can maintain 400 c throughout. You had your reactor directly on the flame making it impossible to maintain even heat. I'm convinced that this was at least partly responsible for the spike in pressure, and the fact that your exit pipe was too small. I'm sorry to say that I don't think you understood anything that I wrote. I'll try to do a better job next time.

Hi Tony,

You did a great job in describing what you wanted to but it was my who firstly didnt exactly got it what you want to say and secondly I also was not able to make my self clear.This happened probably because english is not my first languageI am attaching an rough figure of what I thought you mean to say.http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/936...elayer.png.Now please tell me if I this is ok or not?http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/9366/doublelayer.png

[tony steinke]

Hi Tony,

You did a great job in describing what you wanted to but it was my who firstly didnt exactly got it what you want to say and secondly I also was not able to make my self clear.This happened probably because english is not my first languageI am attaching an rough figure of what I thought you mean to say.http://img52.imageshack.us/img52/936...elayer.png.Now please tell me if I this is ok or not?

Sorry, but I am getting nothing but a blank page. Please note my edit on my last writing.

[Asad Farooqui]

New comers

[QUOTE=sikander999;172012]
Hello Sikander ;
Iam your neuighbour from Pakistan .
First I would say U should thank GOD that reactor didn't EXPLODE . If U have run it 15 minutes more than it have been a BIG-BANG , JUST LIKE A BOMB-blast .
Iam not scaring you . Infact everyone experimenting for the first time should realize that plastic when heated turns into SYN-GAS, quite similar to the methane gas we heat our stoves . So any mistake will definitely will endup as a BLAST .

So please , please , please to ALL NEW-COMERS be careful . It's not a toy that you play with & please NEVER use Scrap/JUNK material for your pyrolysis unit. Junk is always Junk , UNRELIABLE .

If U can't afford proper NEW material than please don't bother to make a pyrolysis unit . In my experience I also made my first unit from used material but after few runs I had to throw it away & MAKE-everything again with new materials .
SO instead of doing it twice , its better U make it once with new materials .

[dutchdivco]

sikander,

The 'shiver' is GOOD, as its a sign you realise what happened, and how close you came. Sorry I misunderstood, thinking you heated the reactor in your basement.
Best to start at the beginning; you are heating plastic, which is going to 'turn into' or produce; kerosene, Diesel fuel, gasoline and propane. So, in a sense, you are heating those 4 flamable fuels. Think of it, for a moment, as if you were taking a vessel, pouring gasoline, diesel fuel, kerosene into it, sealing it and pumping propane into it, and THEN setting this vessel over a very hot fire!
You are, in effect, making a bomb! There is simply no way around that.
Since you don't want it to BE a bomb, you need to design it to avoid exploding.
First off, instead of using steel drums, which are not meant to handle much pressure, other than the 'weight' of the liquid in them, and are made out of (relatively) thin steel, and have 'seams', consider finding a tank, with rounded ends, no welded seams, etc. LIKE an old water heater tank, or a propane or freon or similar (vaporous) gas holding tank. The kind of tanks they use for welding, for instance.These tanks have no seam, and have rounded ends, and are made of thicker metal. While it takes more heat to heat them up, they are better able to handle being heated up without leaking, or developing metal fatigue, etc.
I don't know precisely what the pressure should be, obviously there is SOME pressure, as the vapour is released from the melting plastic, and expands.The point is to give that vapour some place to go, in order to keep the pressure from building up. Hence, the LARGE diameter pipe mentioned earlier, with no kinks in it. Think of the thumb over the water hose; turn the water on a 'little', and the water dribbles out of the hose, or runs out under low pressure.Put your thumb over the end of the hose, let the pressure build up, and then move your thumb so just a little water comes out, and you can squrt the water across the yard. Similarly, if you had the water turned on the same amount, but had a much smaller diameter hose; this is what you did, by having a 1/2" line, with a kink in it.Also, by using a thin walled vessel, you heated the plastic up rapidly, which is like turning the water valve to full open; you want to GRADUALLY heat it up, so as it begins to produce vapour, you can be monitoring the situation, and insuring that the vapour has someplace to go.
The pressure relief valve as described earlier is a better idea than the 'get one off an old water heater', I stand corrected.
As to exact sizes, etc. I'm afraid I can't help you; I've been reading this thread for 1 1/2 years, have been designing my 'system', have aquired SOME of the materials, but haven't begun to build my system, yet. I am going slow, and cautious, and have other projects already in the works which i need to finish first. Part of the idea of this project is that Jetsis said "Here's what I and my friend have done, and are doing. But this is NOT a 'blueprint'; anyone interested can read what I have done, and then design/build their OWN system, and 'experiment' and refine the design however they choose, and share the results so we all can learn.
Sorry if I was a little harsh on you, I'm actually GLAD you posted your experience, as its an excellent 'cautionary tale' to us all! Those pictures of the 'swollen' reactor vessel are truly worth a thousand words; several earlier posters commented that they got a LOT of gas, but your pictures really 'make it real'! So, THANK YOU for sharing your experience.
You might also consider the idea or starting small; start with a small freon cannister; the ones that are about 1 1/2 feet high, x 1 foot in diameter, (approximately) as a reactor, and experiment with that. Refine your system, so you develop a system that doesn't leak, doesn't build up to high pressures, and produces good product. Then you can build a larger system, based on what you've learned. Again, "Shortcuts make for long delays". Wishing you success and safe experimenting, Jim

[tony steinke]

The 'shiver' is GOOD, as its a sign you realise what happened, and how close you came. Sorry I misunderstood, thinking you heated the reactor in your basement.
Best to start at the beginning; you are heating plastic, which is going to 'turn into' or produce; kerosene, Diesel fuel, gasoline and propane. So, in a sense, you are heating those 4 flamable fuels. Think of it, for a moment, as if you were taking a vessel, pouring gasoline, diesel fuel, kerosene into it, sealing it and pumping propane into it, and THEN setting this vessel over a very hot fire!
You are, in effect, making a bomb! There is simply no way around that.
Since you don't want it to BE a bomb, you need to design it to avoid exploding.
First off, instead of using steel drums, which are not meant to handle much pressure, other than the 'weight' of the liquid in them, and are made out of (relatively) thin steel, and have 'seams', consider finding a tank, with rounded ends, no welded seams, etc. LIKE an old water heater tank, or a propane or freon or similar (vaporous) gas holding tank. The kind of tanks they use for welding, for instance.These tanks have no seam, and have rounded ends, and are made of thicker metal. While it takes more heat to heat them up, they are better able to handle being heated up without leaking, or developing metal fatigue, etc.
I don't know precisely what the pressure should be, obviously there is SOME pressure, as the vapour is released from the melting plastic, and expands.The point is to give that vapour some place to go, in order to keep the pressure from building up. Hence, the LARGE diameter pipe mentioned earlier, with no kinks in it. Think of the thumb over the water hose; turn the water on a 'little', and the water dribbles out of the hose, or runs out under low pressure.Put your thumb over the end of the hose, let the pressure build up, and then move your thumb so just a little water comes out, and you can squrt the water across the yard. Similarly, if you had the water turned on the same amount, but had a much smaller diameter hose; this is what you did, by having a 1/2" line, with a kink in it.Also, by using a thin walled vessel, you heated the plastic up rapidly, which is like turning the water valve to full open; you want to GRADUALLY heat it up, so as it begins to produce vapour, you can be monitoring the situation, and insuring that the vapour has someplace to go.
The pressure relief valve as described earlier is a better idea than the 'get one off an old water heater', I stand corrected.
As to exact sizes, etc. I'm afraid I can't help you; I've been reading this thread for 1 1/2 years, have been designing my 'system', have aquired SOME of the materials, but haven't begun to build my system, yet. I am going slow, and cautious, and have other projects already in the works which i need to finish first. Part of the idea of this project is that Jetsis said "Here's what I and my friend have done, and are doing. But this is NOT a 'blueprint'; anyone interested can read what I have done, and then design/build their OWN system, and 'experiment' and refine the design however they choose, and share the results so we all can learn.
Sorry if I was a little harsh on you, I'm actually GLAD you posted your experience, as its an excellent 'cautionary tale' to us all! Those pictures of the 'swollen' reactor vessel are truly worth a thousand words; several earlier posters commented that they got a LOT of gas, but your pictures really 'make it real'! So, THANK YOU for sharing your experience.
You might also consider the idea or starting small; start with a small freon cannister; the ones that are about 1 1/2 feet high, x 1 foot in diameter, (approximately) as a reactor, and experiment with that. Refine your system, so you develop a system that doesn't leak, doesn't build up to high pressures, and produces good product. Then you can build a larger system, based on what you've learned. Again, "Shortcuts make for long delays". Wishing you success and safe experimenting, Jim

Well said Jim

[sikander999]

[QUOTE=Asad Farooqui;172019]

Hello Sikander ;
Iam your neuighbour from Pakistan .
First I would say U should thank GOD that reactor didn't EXPLODE . If U have run it 15 minutes more than it have been a BIG-BANG , JUST LIKE A BOMB-blast .
Iam not scaring you . Infact everyone experimenting for the first time should realize that plastic when heated turns into SYN-GAS, quite similar to the methane gas we heat our stoves . So any mistake will definitely will endup as a BLAST .

So please , please , please to ALL NEW-COMERS be careful . It's not a toy that you play with & please NEVER use Scrap/JUNK material for your pyrolysis unit. Junk is always Junk , UNRELIABLE .

If U can't afford proper NEW material than please don't bother to make a pyrolysis unit . In my experience I also made my first unit from used material but after few runs I had to throw it away & MAKE-everything again with new materials .
SO instead of doing it twice , its better U make it once with new materials .

Hi asad,
Thanks for the precautionary note.But honestly I was expecting for some suggestions from you and other seniors too as to what should be the ideal thickness ,height and diameter of the reactor in proportion of the plastic i.e. say what should be the ideal thiskness,height and diameter of the reactor to cook 10 kg of plastic.Anyways thanks again for the comments.

[sikander999]

Sorry, but I am getting nothing but a blank page. Please note my edit on my last writing.

Hi Tony,

I just edit the link kindly check it once.Though I just draw the lines using paint but hope it will clear what I want to say.Please do reply.

Thanks.

[Asad Farooqui]

Don't go for JUNK .

The 'shiver' is GOOD, as its a sign you realise what happened, and how close you came.
As to exact sizes, etc. I'm afraid I can't help you; I've been reading this thread for 1 1/2 years, have been designing my 'system', have aquired SOME of the materials, but haven't begun to build my system, yet.

You might also consider the idea or starting small; start with a small freon cannister;
"Shortcuts make for long delays".

Hello JIM ;
Now I would like to give U a bashing .

I requested earlier please don't go for Junk/used materials like old propane tank etc .
My first reactor made out of old propane tank, but it caught fire after few runs & the fire was so strong that my neighbours truck parked nearby almost caught fire . we have to brake its windscreen to get it rolling out of that sight otherwise it would have been a BiG-BANG .

When I came out of the shock I build the reactor again this time with a NEW-Seamless schedule-40 pipe , which is specifically made to handle high pressure, about -times the normal welded pipes & High temperature also .
All the oil-refineries ONLY use this sort of material , they are not crazy to throw there money . There batch sizes are not just 10-20 liters infact 1,00,000 liters or more & there reactor never have these problems .
The only reason is that they DON'T USE Sub-STANDARD materials .

Kindly don't recommend anything until U haven't experienced it yourself."

Iam sorry I'm a bit harsh on you but please don't mind .This is a pure professional advise which I learned after spending One whole year & spending lot of money .
Please don't have any hard feelings . You have grasp some info & now its time to start building your own unit .
I will try to paste soon pics of my new Pyro-unit .

[sikander999]

The 'shiver' is GOOD, as its a sign you realise what happened, and how close you came. Sorry I misunderstood, thinking you heated the reactor in your basement.
Best to start at the beginning; you are heating plastic, which is going to 'turn into' or produce; kerosene, Diesel fuel, gasoline and propane. So, in a sense, you are heating those 4 flamable fuels. Think of it, for a moment, as if you were taking a vessel, pouring gasoline, diesel fuel, kerosene into it, sealing it and pumping propane into it, and THEN setting this vessel over a very hot fire!
You are, in effect, making a bomb! There is simply no way around that.
Since you don't want it to BE a bomb, you need to design it to avoid exploding.
First off, instead of using steel drums, which are not meant to handle much pressure, other than the 'weight' of the liquid in them, and are made out of (relatively) thin steel, and have 'seams', consider finding a tank, with rounded ends, no welded seams, etc. LIKE an old water heater tank, or a propane or freon or similar (vaporous) gas holding tank. The kind of tanks they use for welding, for instance.These tanks have no seam, and have rounded ends, and are made of thicker metal. While it takes more heat to heat them up, they are better able to handle being heated up without leaking, or developing metal fatigue, etc.
I don't know precisely what the pressure should be, obviously there is SOME pressure, as the vapour is released from the melting plastic, and expands.The point is to give that vapour some place to go, in order to keep the pressure from building up. Hence, the LARGE diameter pipe mentioned earlier, with no kinks in it. Think of the thumb over the water hose; turn the water on a 'little', and the water dribbles out of the hose, or runs out under low pressure.Put your thumb over the end of the hose, let the pressure build up, and then move your thumb so just a little water comes out, and you can squrt the water across the yard. Similarly, if you had the water turned on the same amount, but had a much smaller diameter hose; this is what you did, by having a 1/2" line, with a kink in it.Also, by using a thin walled vessel, you heated the plastic up rapidly, which is like turning the water valve to full open; you want to GRADUALLY heat it up, so as it begins to produce vapour, you can be monitoring the situation, and insuring that the vapour has someplace to go.
The pressure relief valve as described earlier is a better idea than the 'get one off an old water heater', I stand corrected.
As to exact sizes, etc. I'm afraid I can't help you; I've been reading this thread for 1 1/2 years, have been designing my 'system', have aquired SOME of the materials, but haven't begun to build my system, yet. I am going slow, and cautious, and have other projects already in the works which i need to finish first. Part of the idea of this project is that Jetsis said "Here's what I and my friend have done, and are doing. But this is NOT a 'blueprint'; anyone interested can read what I have done, and then design/build their OWN system, and 'experiment' and refine the design however they choose, and share the results so we all can learn.
Sorry if I was a little harsh on you, I'm actually GLAD you posted your experience, as its an excellent 'cautionary tale' to us all! Those pictures of the 'swollen' reactor vessel are truly worth a thousand words; several earlier posters commented that they got a LOT of gas, but your pictures really 'make it real'! So, THANK YOU for sharing your experience.
You might also consider the idea or starting small; start with a small freon cannister; the ones that are about 1 1/2 feet high, x 1 foot in diameter, (approximately) as a reactor, and experiment with that. Refine your system, so you develop a system that doesn't leak, doesn't build up to high pressures, and produces good product. Then you can build a larger system, based on what you've learned. Again, "Shortcuts make for long delays". Wishing you success and safe experimenting, Jim

Hi,
Thanks again for the comments Dutchdivco.I bought an cooking gas tank some 6 lt one and will get it ready with in 2-3 days.OFCOURSE WONT FORGET TO USE PRV THIS TIME .And also get an condenser pipe atleast 1" + 4-5 feet in length.