How to turn plastic waste into diesel fuel cheaply

[tony steinke]

Hi All

I am currently looking for some material for this project,

i am concerned about the V-Grove that Jetjis talks about
can somebody explain more about this grove and how to make it.

is the v grove just a metal to metal contact with no gasket in between
or is there some sort of gasket between the V-Grove

please help.

Jimmyx

Hey Jimmy, From the beginning of this forum, the wedge-grove contact was metal to metal only. So unless I missed something along the way, that's suppose to be the way to go. It has been suggested to me (outside of this forum) that a boiler gasket may work, but that would be one and done. Possibly something to look into if you were making big batches and had a really cheap supply of gaskets. I was quoted $500 for a 12 inch grove and wedge so I hope you have a cnc. By the way, if you are going to use some sort of bottom burner rather than electric for heating, you may want to try multiple layers of half inch cement board coated with floor tile mortor as a much cheaper alternative to the bricks. I made a small test kiln with a lid, large enough for a one gallon paint can, and was able to achieve 400c rather quickly. The kiln has not been tested for it's longevity.

[Jetijs]

About the groove. This is how it looks like:


It can be machined with a lathe without problems. The lid has a V shaped outward facing ectension in circle form, and the flange has the same diameter and width groove machined in the material only a bit shallower. Anyway, I still put some high temp silicon as a gasket just to be sure, it does not use much of the silicon, one small tube is enough for about 30 sealings and it costs about 5$. I use a red colored silicon used as a gasket for engines, it handles up to 320 degrees celsius.

[tony steinke]

About the groove. This is how it looks like:


It can be machined with a lathe without problems. The lid has a V shaped outward facing ectension in circle form, and the flange has the same diameter and width groove machined in the material only a bit shallower. Anyway, I still put some high temp silicon as a gasket just to be sure, it does not use much of the silicon, one small tube is enough for about 30 sealings and it costs about 5$. I use a red colored silicon used as a gasket for engines, it handles up to 320 degrees celsius.

Hi Jetijs, I'm curious to know if you have ever tried White Lighting Flame Buster high heat latex caulk as I already have a huge supply of this product. It is suppose to be good up to 1380f.

[Jetijs]

Hi tony,
No I have not tried that, but sounds that it should work just fine, as long as it does not harden into some kind to hard stone like structure and is therefor hard to remove. I once tried a high temp sealer used on fireplaces, it worked good, but in the process it hardened and was so hard to remove from the steel after that, that I decided not to use it anymore.

[tony steinke]

To anyone new to this forum

I stated earlier that I built a small test kiln large enough for a one gallon paint can. I was so anxious to see the magic happen, that I took a stupid and danerous shortcut. It has been said before by others in this forum, but I will say it again: DO NOT USE A CAN FOR A REACTOR VESSEL, it is dangerous.

[otpadnoulje]

Reactor must be made from steel sheet 5 mm thick minimum.

You can also use compressed air tank used by the trucks

[dutchdivco]

I'm thinking

the kind of tanks used for welding; oxygen, aceteline, argon, etc. would also work; nice and thick, no welded seams? Obviously take appropriate precautions to make sure any flamable gas is displaced before doing any work on them.

Also thinking the gas (vapour) lines can't be 'too big'. i.e. it has been suggested at least 1 1 /4" diameter, but it wouldn't hurt to go to 2". And, if you 'upsize' the unit, say the 1500 Lb per batch as mentioned earlier, don't forget to UPSIZE the gas line as well. Otherwise even a 2" dia. pipe may be like the 1/2" pipe in the earlier near fatal instance; way too small to handle the amount of vapor. I again point to the words of Master jetsis, who stated early on that this is/should be a LOW PRESSURE device. Happy holidays everyone, and stay safe!!!Jim

[dutchdivco]

Expounding on the idea of "Low Pressure"

Just sharing my thinking on this, a little more. There are some processes where PRESSURE, and even "High" pressure, are essential to the process. Not being a chemist, can't think of any for an analogy, except a steam engine/turbine.
(And if there is such a thing as a "Low pressure" steam turbine, please don't bother to 'correct' me, as this is JUST an analogy, LOL.
With a steam turbine, we are heating water, to turn it into steam, in order to generate pressure, so it will power the turbine. Our primary purpose is to generate pressure, getting steam is just a by-product of this.
With this plastic to diesel process, its the opposite; we are heating the plastic, in order to get it to release these gaseous vapors; the pressure is just a by-product of the process, not the goal or reason.
We can control how much pressure is created, by several factors; how 'quickly' we heat the plastic, the diameter of the pipes carrying the vapour, and by giving the vapour a 'place to go'. What I mean by this is not having a 'plugged end', at the end of the line. The gas goes from the reactor, thru various condensers at various temps, etc. and then goes to a final "low pressure" holding tank, of the type used for methane digesters, and described elsewhere in this thread, where the gas is allowed to accumulate at LOW pressure; it bubbles up thru water, and into a 30 gal. steel drum, which is upended into a 50 gal. steel drum. As the gas accumulates, it raises up the 30 gal. drum. So, the only thing putting pressure on the gas is the weight of the 30 gallon drum; not much pressure.
To try to say it another way; if you built a steam engine, and the boiler held 2 gallons of water, and you had a 1 foot diameter pipe carrying the steam to the turbine, with no restriction or nozzle, the turbine probably wouldn't turn, because you have steam, but not much pressure. On the other hand, if you were to build a reactor that held, say 2lbs. of plastic, and had a 1' diameter pipe carrying the vapour to the concenser, this would NOT keep the 'process' from happening. Granted, you would have more heat loss from a large diameter pipe, but the plastic would STILL turn to vapour. So, what I'm trying to say is we don't NEED pressure, for the process to happen, just heat. And, we can design the system to keep the pressure low. Hence, when in doubt, go with a Bigger diameter pipe. 1 foot diameter was an exageration, to make a point, but I'm thinking with a small reactor, a 3-4" pipe wouldn't be a bad idea, at all. Insulate it and I don't think the heat loss would be a problem. For a 1500Lb per batch system, you may well need to go with a 1 foot diameter pipe! Not being an engineer, I have no way of knowing how to calculate that, but I would definetly ere on the side of going 'too big' rather than 'too small'. And again, how quickly the plastic is heated has got to affect how rapidly the vapour is produced, so a slow heating is probably safer than a rapid heating, which will produce a lot of gas for the system to handle. By all means, give the vapour a place to go, and a route for it to go (piping) which discourages a build up of pressure. Sorry if I'm stating the obvious, but just wanted to emphasise this. Jim

[extraloud]

high temp gasket

Hi tony,
No I have not tried that, but sounds that it should work just fine, as long as it does not harden into some kind to hard stone like structure and is therefor hard to remove. I once tried a high temp sealer used on fireplaces, it worked good, but in the process it hardened and was so hard to remove from the steel after that, that I decided not to use it anymore.

i used a Extreme-Temperature Compressible Graphite Gaskets -upto 850F - but you can go higher no problem - no v-groove - just flat metal to flat metal with dry gasket - std flange - this worked great - however after several times of opening and closing the vessel the gasket can stick the the steel and tear apart. I bough several backup gaskets as well. you can buy the graphic paper in sheets as well at different thicknesses.

see 2nd section
McMaster-Carr

you can see the gasket is getting pretty beat up in this picture - it works but is not optimal for repeated opening and closing unless you can very careful in doing so.

[saqr2006]

hi All

is there is problem if use more than 400 C temp??

[tony steinke]

i used a Extreme-Temperature Compressible Graphite Gaskets -upto 850F - but you can go higher no problem - no v-groove - just flat metal to flat metal with dry gasket - std flange - this worked great - however after several times of opening and closing the vessel the gasket can stick the the steel and tear apart. I bough several backup gaskets as well. you can buy the graphic paper in sheets as well at different thicknesses.

see 2nd section
McMaster-Carr

you can see the gasket is getting pretty beat up in this picture - it works but is not optimal for repeated opening and closing unless you can very careful in doing so.

Can you gestimate what this material ends up costing per batch, for what appears to be about a 10 inch diameter reactor. Also, where did you purchase it? Sorry, didn't notice the McMaster-Carr attachment. My bad

[dutchdivco]

My 'take', for what its worth

"hi All

is there is problem if use more than 400 C temp??"
There's no advantage in going higher, and the higher you go, the more 'stress' you put on all your components (joints/fittings, etc.). Actually, (from reading others posts, as this is all still theoretical for me) the optimum temp is around 300+, rather than 400C, if I'm understanding. And, the temperature can have an effect on the product.Too high a temp, increases the amount of 'vapour' and decreases the amount of condensate, if I'm understanding correctly.Someone correct me if i've got it wrong.
And higher temp. means your expending more energy, to heat the plastic, which is a waste if its not going to benefit you.

Are you thinking of a system where you wouldn't have much control over the temp., and so are concerned it MIGHT go over 400, or are you thinking of a system where it would for sure, on a regular basis go over 400?

Again from reading what others have written, and based on my understanding, you need to be able to control the temps for condensing the liquid fuels, fairly well. The temp. of the initial melting of the plastic is not as crucial, if I'm understanding correctly. You could control it by the amount of insulation, and by the amount of fuel being used to heat it. Anyway, don't know if this answers your concern. Jim

[jimmyx1000]

Whats the Reflux can somebody explain ?

Hi All

I see the mention of A reflux and a few people using this reflux.

can somebody tell me whats inside the reflux , and how it works


thankyou

jimmyx

[Asad Farooqui]

temperature range

"hi All

is there is problem if use more than 400 C temp??"
optimum temp is around 300+, rather than 400C, if I'm understanding.
Jim

Hello ;
What I have experienced ,pyrolysis temperature is quite important .

At lower temperature around 300-350 celsius, pyrolysis will start, BUT less liquid fuel about 50% & more of COKE is produced, it could jump upto 30-40% .

For optimum results its better to go around 450-470 celsius.

[Asad Farooqui]

online conferencing .

[QUOTE=Asad Farooqui;173006]

Hello Everybody in the community ;
Last week I talked on skype with one of the community member .
It started for 5-minutes but ended in one hour . It was a very nice experience & both of us were glad to share our experiences.


I just registered on a new calling online service like SKYPE .

This service has a better voice & picture quality than skype .
PLUS 12-people can have a joint discussion at one time .

I would like to suggest wouldn't it be better that the forum community should also interact/communicate with each other through such online services .


My id = dr.diesel.1
Connecting to ooVoo

I'll be glad to chat with you, Jetijs .