How to turn plastic waste into diesel fuel cheaply

[blackchisel97]

heating source

Hi guys,
I was reading and researching various methods of efficient heating systems. I like the idea of oil burner but they need some electrical power to operate pump and blower. I know, not a big deal but requires additional components. There is a great potential to utilize produced gas to keep it going but some source has to initialize the process first. I used to have various water heaters; electric -sucks, oil fired and propane. Propane heater was 40% more efficient with much faster recovery rate during consumption (shower, etc.) What we're looking for is type of burner which doesn't need additional electric power so we can have portable device. Also, burner which will heat reactor in reasonable amount of time - cost efficient, allow adjusting and precise monitoring. Once the gas production begins, propane burner may be reduced or eliminated, depending on temperature inside the vessel. I found a forum with nice design of burner to be used with propane. Please take a look and use your imagination as far as size, shape etc. -[IMG][/IMG]

And this is the website of maker - Cast Burners, Pipe Burners. High Heat Cast Iron Propane Burners,Venturi

V

[blackchisel97]

One more idea (hope you don't mind ) - look at these rotors and possible use as top flange - http://image.classictrucks.com/f/262...oma+rotors.jpg.

I'm working on small scale (desk top) model which I could use to make presentation as well as experiment with temperatures, catalysts etc. I would use small propane tank inside Selkirk/Sentinel double wall flu piece. They're rated at 650deg C continuous heat, which is more than needed. Largest is 8" ID and would allow to have sufficient spacing around propane tank (Coleman). There is no need for additional insulation, just a cap on the top with an opening for the pipe,temp probe. I was thinking to use one of the above rotors as a base for reactor. Propane burner would be set in the center of the rotor. Even on such small scale it should allow to make necessary adjustment before getting bigger. I want it to share in case if someone was thinking the same.


Vtech

[fibuslitero]

To blackchisel97

Hi blackchisel97:
Thank you for your ideas.
I am developing a HHO burner (hydrogen + oxygen) based on a Hydrogen cell that splits water into Hydrogen and Oxygen.
Due to the high calorific value of hidrogen (2.8 times more than propane) the idea is to assist in the initial reaction speed and increasing significantly the effect of the gas mixture (propane / butane) derived from plastic to sustain the whole reaction.

Here is a video (not very good quality) with the main idea:

19 Tip HHO BURNER New Permanent Design - YouTube

DIY oxyhydrogen cell in a car (there are lots and lots of information about this stuff):

HHO in CAR - YouTube

It usually requires 12 volts so there are many ways to obtain enough energy for this.
I am talking about lab scale, if I am succesful I will try to scale the model.

I also want to install this kind of HHO cells in my cars and generators so I will try to reach a little bit of freedom with self produced diesel and gasoline fuel from plastics + oxyhydrogen gas fuel support.
But in the first stage I will try to have more power by burning hho gas and heat the reactor.
Please, safety first when using hydrogen!
It is a fantastic gift but we have to be very careful.
There are lots of information about hydrogen in the internet, ways to store it , how to produce it, how to burn it, how to use it in standard engines, etc, etc.

One more idea (hope you don't mind ) - look at these rotors and possible use as top flange - http://image.classictrucks.com/f/262...oma+rotors.jpg.

I'm working on small scale (desk top) model which I could use to make presentation as well as experiment with temperatures, catalysts etc. I would use small propane tank inside Selkirk/Sentinel double wall flu piece. They're rated at 650deg C continuous heat, which is more than needed. Largest is 8" ID and would allow to have sufficient spacing around propane tank (Coleman). There is no need for additional insulation, just a cap on the top with an opening for the pipe,temp probe. I was thinking to use one of the above rotors as a base for reactor. Propane burner would be set in the center of the rotor. Even on such small scale it should allow to make necessary adjustment before getting bigger. I want it to share in case if someone was thinking the same.


Vtech

[RenewDiciple]

Great work everyone!!

Hi everyone in the forum,

I been following and reading this forum for awhile. I would like to thank Jetits for starting this wonderful thread, as well as imakebiodiesel, Dr Farooqui, Mbrown and all the others for contributing their infinite knowledge.

I am drawing up plans to create a pyrolysis machine that will be based on the information learned in this forum but I would like to concentrate on rubber as opposed to plastics. I am thinking along the lines of a horizontal type cylinder that would rotate like a cement truck and it would be heated from the bottom. This is similar to how some of the Chinese manufacturers have it setup. I think rotating the cylinder would allow for the material to mix more evenly; while allowing for more even distribution of heat. Has anyone tried something like this? What do you see as some of the drawbacks of such a setup? Thanks and best of luck to all!!!

[imakebiodiesel]

Going back a bit to Heini's post about viability. He is absolutely right. Clean sorted and shredded waste plastic is a very valuable commodity and it would be crazy to make fuel out of it. It would not make any sense environmentally either because this waste plastic can be used to make new plastic items and reduce the demand for oil.
However a great deal of plastic gets dumped into land fill because it is too contaminated with dirt, oil, food waste, other plastics etc. This waste has no commercial value and is a huge environmental problem. It this waste that should be turned into fuel.
Cynar PLC operate a plant here in Ireland that processes 60 tonnes of mixed plastic waste into diesel every week. They get paid 15600 euros ( land fill fees @260 euros per tonne) to take that waste and they turn it into diesel fuel that they can sell for 55,000 euros ( two thirds of the pump price) They employ 5 workers. Do the sums, they are making a handsome profit..

[rogerd]

Have been reading through the whole thread and must say it is very, very interesting. I love the idea of turning plastic waste into diesel as it will reduce to a large extent the problem of waste disposal in many countries. Recently I was in a developing country and the authorities had set up these units on a experimental basis right next to their waste dump yards. I have great hopes that in the near future a lot of waste can be converted into useful fuels .

[Asad Farooqui]

RUBBER pyrolysis

Hi everyone in the forum,

I been following and reading this forum for awhile. I would like to thank Jetits for starting this wonderful thread, as well as imakebiodiesel, Dr Farooqui, Mbrown and all the others for contributing their infinite knowledge.

I am drawing up plans to create a pyrolysis machine that will be based on the information learned in this forum but I would like to concentrate on rubber as opposed to plastics.

Hello ;
You must be knowing that pyrolysing rubber will give output as follows ;
Crude Oil = 40-45%
Carbon Black = 30-35%
If U plan to use Tyres than additionaly waste Steel wire about 10-12% will also comes out .

On the other hand if U pyrolyse waste plastic the oil yield will be double & the coke deposit will be one-third, about =10-15% & If U can find a suitable catalyst the coke will drop around 5% only .

Iam designing a Continous-Pyro unit for a client of 500 gallons capacity .

He also insisted for using waste tyres as a feedstock , as it is available around $ 30/- per ton . It sounds very attractive on the surface .
BUT
When I told him that he has to dispose about 40 Tons of waste carbon black every month . He immediately dropped the idea .

Secondly what I have heard from more experienced people that tyre/rubber derived fuel is more Gooie & thicker .
You'll definitly require special catalyst s & bleaching agents to get a decent marketable fuel .
All the chinese pyro plant producers offers special catalyst to be run in there plant . I have tried them & they really work well .
would you be able to get those catalysts also ?

so the most convenient way around would be waste plastic or WMO .

[dutchdivco]

Thoughts;

On using tires as feedstock, there is another thread, started by Jetsis, I believe, devoted specifically to this topic. The main drawback seems to be there are a lot of chemicals used, in making tures, which are pretty nasty, when released during pyrolisis.It WOULD be a way to make fuel in the event you survive 'armageddon', but probably isn't too practical, otherwise.
On the other hand, used tires ARE an ongoing problem, and are very cheap. If you COULD work out the problems,it MIGHT be worthwhile. Iknow they are making a great 'soundproof' asphalt coating with old tires, and I've seen something about a mulch type product, used around playgrounds, which is made from old tires.

Seems like we have 2 or 3 'conclusions', regarding the economic viability; Firstly, while clean, sorted and even pelletised plastic would be the 'easiest' to work with, its not economically viable or environmentally responsible to use it as 'feedstock'. Too expensive, so while it could be used for preliminary experiments, need to work towards using 'dirty' plastic, as long term feedstock.
Second, have to calculate the vaporous gas, in addition to the liquid fuels, in detirmining economic viability.Actually, thirdly, (particularly in a larger reactor), should probably calculate all product produced, and its 'value'; including the charcoal which could be pressed into 'brickets' and sold, or used 'in house' for heating the reactor. Even 'carbon black' has a certain market value! And, as pointed out earlier, Keroscene has a higher per gallon (or liter) market price than diesel.

Seems to me there re 2 possible scenarios for this technology; going 'big' and going 'small'. "Big" is as part of a larger recycling operation; as the plastic comes in it is sorted as to 'clean' (which is granulated or pelletised, and sold to plastics manufactureres) and 'dirty', which is pyrolised in a reactor.Such an operation would then try to use the vaporous product as much as possible, using it for heating the reactor, as well as in forklifts or other equipment, and would use the liquid fuel in vehicles, etc.

The small scale is, to me, becoming somewhat questionable, if you count the persons labor at market value. This is an operation similar to WVO, where an individual goes around collecting plastic from regular sources, and processes it. IF they don't figure their labor costs, i.e. "I am retired, and so wouldn't be doing anything if I weren't doing this", and IF they can find a use for all the vaporous fuel produced, both by using it to heat the reactor, AND using it for cooking, space and water heating, running a generator, and if they live in an area where bringing in grid power would be expensive, than MAYBE it would be economically viable.

I am not, in any way, meaning to 'denigrate' this technology; just trying to discuss the real, practical limitations. To read this thread, and think "Oh, I can, in effect, get off the petroleum 'grid', making my own fuel and telling the gas stations to get stuffed", well, I don't think so.Jim

[jantonio]

Interested

Hello Heini.Im interested in your business. Please give me an email where I can contact you.

Thank you for your reply. No you have not ruin any party, as I make a living out of scrap trading and have to look for price discrepancies.
My claim is only the prices for scrap and of course you can again confirm it:
(prices FOB, so even that means that plastic have even a higher price at the end consumer):
Price - World scrap - Scrap plastic, metal, Paper,Rubber,Electric,Make your Scrap trade easy!
(please look at recycled plastic down the page - post consumer).

So here I am not talking about PET, but all kinds of plastic (HDPE, LDPE, PP, PS, ABS) . Please just dont turn PC into plastic (code 7), especially clear - as you see it can fetch up to 2USD/kg.

What I am just saying, is that economically it might not make sense (as of now with the current prices). This is just a logical assessment nothing else.

And if you can source plastic very cheap, please, I am interested. This means that the plastic is turned into consumer goods again, meaning it is good for the environment (as to produce some of these plastics need a lot of input).

If you want to do it yourself just go to:
Plastic Scrap Importers - Reliable Plastic Scrap Buyers, Importers and Buying Info at Alibaba.com

Contact some of the dealers (as not all are really trustworthy) and make a good relationship - and trade. However, some expertise on export is advised (otherwise just try me .

Cheers and might you all turn plastic into money (and as well good for the environment).

[sviesaISaukstybiu]

BTW, I already posted this on Efficient Carburetor designs thread, thought I repost it here since it is relevant to this thread as well. So if everything really works as I think it should, eveyone should be able to drive their car on 200 miles per gallon with a moderatelly easy modification of their cars. And since they then used so small fuel ammounts, they could easy produce that ammount themselves using the tech described in this topic with a unit the size of a microwave

Hi Jetijs,

Thanks for briliant information. I'm highly interested in the idea of turning liquid gasoline into gas/vapour form prior feeding to cylinders and was thinking on the thing for a long time. I think that's what I'm going to do in nearest future. Have you tried the concept yet? And question is whether this would work with ordinary gasoline from fuel stations or with gasoline from plastics only? As it is said that gasoline additives may prevent this as this is why high mileage carburetors does not work anymore.

Also, has anyone tried the gasoline from plastic in fuel injected engine? Does it need any processing (trying to get rid of the water if any)? And can such gasoline really damage (rust) the injectors?

[Jetijs]

sviesaISaukstybiu
I have not tried that concept yet, I have limited free time nowadays and also limited funds. It definitely should work with fuel form PP or PE, because those are pure hydrocarbons. I am certain that it should also work on regular diesel/gasoline, but this needs to be tried yet. It is best to start with plastic fuel and if it works on it but does not work on regular fuel, then you know it

[Asad Farooqui]

Gasoline fuel - injectors

Hi Jetijs,

I'm highly interested in the idea of turning liquid gasoline into gas/vapour form prior feeding to cylinders and was thinking on the thing for a long time.

Also, has anyone tried the gasoline from plastic in fuel injected engine? Does it need any processing (trying to get rid of the water if any)? And can such gasoline really damage (rust) the injectors?

Hello ;
1) I tried running PP-derived gasoline, in my car with fuel injected engine .
After 1000 km the injectors chocked & moisture has to be cleaned out .
I didn't have a centrifuge machine . In my opinion a centrifuge is a must to remove moisture & sludge from your liquid fuels .
Hopefully the injectors will not choke .
The reason, I believe of moisture coming in plastic derived fuel is that, waste plastic has some moisture contents which mixes in the liquid fuel, specially the gasoline range as its B.P is the same as water.

Kerosene & diesel range has higher B.P so its not much likely that the moisture is NOT found in these fuel ranges .

2) The idea of running 200 Km in few gallons of vaporized-gasoline fuel is not explored by me . I would like to read more about it .
Kindly refer me any link for further reading about it .

[sviesaISaukstybiu]

sviesaISaukstybiu
I have not tried that concept yet, I have limited free time nowadays and also limited funds. It definitely should work with fuel form PP or PE, because those are pure hydrocarbons. I am certain that it should also work on regular diesel/gasoline, but this needs to be tried yet. It is best to start with plastic fuel and if it works on it but does not work on regular fuel, then you know it

Jetijs,

Could you please draw a diagram how you imagine this system? I could try to construct that and report the results. I was thinking to use a copper pipe wound around the exhaust manifold as a boiler. In my opinion this way we could use gasoline/diesel from plastic without fearing to damage the injectors.

[sviesaISaukstybiu]

Hello ;
1) I tried running PP-derived gasoline, in my car with fuel injected engine .
After 1000 km the injectors chocked & moisture has to be cleaned out .
I didn't have a centrifuge machine .

Kerosene & diesel range has higher B.P so its not much likely that the moisture is NOT found in these fuel ranges .

2) The idea of running 200 Km in few gallons of vaporized-gasoline fuel is not explored by me . I would like to read more about it .
Kindly refer me any link for further reading about it .

Asad!!

I'm honored by your attention to my problem. Hearing the results from such experienced people is invaluable and could really help not do the same mistakes or help on finding the solution.

1) I don't have the centrifuge also, so I quess I may also face the same problem with gasoline. Besides I was thinking to use gasoline from PE firstly. Thank you for sharing your experience. Did the injectors get absolutely damaged or they just didn't work well with gasoline from plastics (and worked well again after changing back to regular gasoline)?

2) I don't think there is much info about that. We just need to do it ourselves and see what we get. This way we could use plastic's gasoline as ordinary and get much greater mileage without fearing to damage the injectors. Your input in designing such a system would be much appreciated.

3) I'm just about to build my pyrolysis unit now. I wonder which configuration has proved to be the best? I saw Jetijs friend has later mounted the condensors on top of each other. Is this better than having condensors horizontaly? And where would you implement the cyclon filter and how it is made?

[dutchdivco]

Vaporising gasoline

SOUNDS like a great idea. Unfortunately, I 'wasted' a lot of time, before finally concluding that it is not practical. There are a number of reasons; gasoline is not 1 substnce, it is up to 2000 different substances (aromatic hydrocarbons) each with its own, unique characterisitics; what I mean is this; if you have, say, 1 gallon of 'pure' alcohol. Each drop, and each molecule in each drop, is exactly the same as every other.
However, if you have 1 gallon of gasoline, this is NOT the case; each drop may have many different formulations within it; generally, the most volatile on the outside, with progressively less volatile as you move towards the center of the drop. I am refering to a drop traveling in an airstream.

Heat and vacuum contribute to vaporisation; If you take a pan, put some gasoline in it, and heat it on, say, an electric 'hotplate' ( using a long extension cord, so you are far away from any structures or flamable material) it will begin to vaporise, forming a heavier than air blue gray 'smoke' (actually more like 'steam).You can pour it from the pan, into another container, or out onto the ground.However, there will still be some liquid in the pan, that doesn't vaporise. Similarly, pour some gasoline into a bowl, and set it outside. About 1/2 the volume will evaporate within the first 1/2 hour or so, depending on temp. It will lose 1/2 of the volume left, in the next 1/2 hour or so. But, a week later there will still be some liquid in the bowl! This is the heaviest of the 'fractions'; the least volotile; this is not simply additives, it is inherent in the gasoline.

The reason we have a catalyctic converter is to burn off these heaviest fractions, that don't even burn during the combustion in an engine.So no amount of vacuum or heat is going to get these fractions to vaporise.

Now, its a combination of heat and vacuum, (or negative pressure) that cause gasoline fractions to vaporise.So, you use the vacuum created by the piston going down in the cylinder, to draw the vapor into the cylinder; then what? During the next cycle, the intake valve closes, and the piston moves back up the cylinder, compressing the vapor; when you compress it, thats the opposite of vacuum; it will cause the vapor to re-condense into a liquid.
If you use 'injectors' to get the vapor into the cylinder, you still have to use positive pressure, and it is still subjected to the positive pressure of the cylinder cycle.

Oh, and by the way, its the heavier fractions, which are the most difficult to vaporise, thay have all the energy.

All I'm saying is you would have to totally redesign the engine, to avoid compressing the vapor, a standard infernal combustion engine just won't work with 'vaporised' gasoline. I've done a lot of research on it, and so have a lot of others; its not because the oil companies are buying people off, or killing them; it just doesn't work.

There is an approach that comes close, Google "Theoldone"; a guy that messes with the intake valve opening, amongst many other things, He does it for race cars, but he IS getting maximum from each drop of gasoline. However, its not 'easy' what he does.

Better off working with the technology in this thread, and then doing everything you can to get the best mileage you can, from your vehicle, without wasting your time (my opinion) trying to 'vaporise' the gasoline.

Best thing you can do is adjust "That nut, located just behind the steering wheel" i.e the driver. You can do more to improve mileage that way, than by any other adjustment or add-on.

Beyond that, putting a vaccum guage on your car, and learning how to use it, using a tire guage, etc.learning "pulse and glide" and other strategies for driving, etc. can save you a BUNCH of gas.Anyway, just my thoughts, hoping to save you time otherwise wasted pursueing something that just doesn't, and can't, work.

Its like saying; I'll hook up a generator, to an electric motor, so the motor turns the generator, which generates the electricity, to turn the motor.It SOUNDS good, but it doesn't work. Vaporising gasoline is the same way, and if you really research it, you will eventually come to the same conclusion. Anyway, my .2 worth. Jim