How to turn plastic waste into diesel fuel cheaply

[PLASTICTRIX]

I have recently found a great source of plastic. A friend of mine is in upper management at a large soft drink manufacturing facility, he gave me access to upwards of 100 5 gal. syrup buckets with lids and 20 to 30 20gal. syrup drums a day..This is a great free source of plastic. They have been paying to just toss them into a 15yd dumpster.
Meanwhile I have been hoarding them all in my ever growing mountain of plastic in the back corner of my yard for quite some time. As the pile is growing i have come to realize that it will not be easy sizing the containers for my retort and is going to really slow me down. I have been cutting them up with a chainsaw on a large tarp, but this is not very efficient, annoys my wife, and makes a terrible mess.
I think i am going to have to build a grinder or shredder of sorts to efficiently handle them..I also scored a bunch of pallet gaylords to put the shredded material into for easy storage.. Any suggestions or ideas for effectively reducing the size of these containers would be appreciated. The diameter of a blue 20gal. drum is about 20 inches, so it would have to have a fairly large capacity to take a whole one in..

[Tplane37]

So, make sure you have a fully functional bubbler, and a full face respirator on hand before venturing into pyrolyzing fluff.

I fully intend to not only have the respirator on hand, but I am wanting to have redundancy in the bubblers as well as redundant carbon filtration in the system. But knowing what to activate the carbon with is going to be dependent on what chemical gasses are produced. The filtration and safety side of things is an area where there is no such thing as "overkill" in my mind.

Might as well add in hydrogen fluoride gas (HF) into the mix. From researching the subject of toxic by-products of pyrolysis all of the major problems are caused by halogenated hydrocarbons, and the toxic and corrosive gasses are just the tip of the iceburg, because down stream from the pyrolysis unit will be formed "super toxins" such as dioxins. * * * I do not happen to believe that the combination of HCL, HF, HCN, plus hydrocarbons is going to result in anything worse than the above. Especially since chlorine is needed to neutralize cyanide. Maybe one bubbler will handle both, but I am all for redundency, especially when dealing with HCL, HF and HCN. You will want to have some high quality gas analyzers on the your operation to monitor your output and protect your operators.

If a toxic gas is possible to produce via pyrolysis, then I want a filter or bubbler in the system designed to neutralize it. "It's better to have one and not need it, than to need one and not have it." I was looking into the dioxine delima, and this may be easier to deal with (not necessarily cheap, but easy) than previously thought. Here's a citation from Polychlorinated dibenzodioxins - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia :

In incineration, dioxins can also reform or form de novo in the atmosphere above the stack as the exhaust gases cool through a temperature window of 600 to 200 °C. The most common method of reducing the quantity of dioxins reforming or forming de novo (Latin for "as new") is through rapid (30 millisecond) quenching of the exhaust gases through that 400 °C window. Incinerator emissions of dioxins have been reduced by over 90% as a result of new emissions control requirements.

Here is what I suggest. Liquid nitrogen being pumped through sealed coils in a double-insulated chest freezer (add the pink foam panel insulation used on the exterior of houses to the outside of the deep freezer is how we have built these freezers before). The dioxines would not make contact with the liquid nitrogen, because the nitrogen would be in its own sealed system. The gases would pass through the chest freezer in a similar way as your ice filled condensers, but flowing liquid nitrogen is as approximately -300 degrees F. This would absolutely quench the exhaust gases... and when the liquid nitrogen goes to a gaseous state after flowing through the freezer, it can be introduced to the reactor as a means of maintaining the oxygen-free environment.

This would introduce another challenge though, because you want to do this between your reactor/retort and your condensers (ASAP after creating the gas) when the gas temperatures are between 400 C and 600 C, you may end up having to do a second run on the bio-oil because this process would completely nullify your other condensers, but it may be worth it to avoid the toxic chemicals. This would probably not work with a reflux column. And we are left with another question: What do the dioxines convert to after being quenched? And will the reform in the mixed bio-oil when you do your second run?

I am with imakebiodiesel. I am just going to stay away from it.

However, I understand the economic incentive, and I appreciate someone wanting to tackle the problem.

For the time being, I am in agreement as well. I want to get started on smaller, proven units while continuously trying to figure out the "Fluff" (sounds like a catch phrase for everything we cannot identify). I think a small unit using a 20# (5 US gallon) propane tank for the retort would be a good place to start, and use bottle caps. It's a small size, PP is proven to be the easiest to work with, and the system is the most direct.

I don't have access to vast amounts of feedstock at my current location, but we have a horse breeding stable in Ohio that I can get plenty of manure from to use instead of plastic. I still like the idea of using plastic since it is effectively worthless for any other purpose (We try to avoid consuming food/drinks from plastic containers...but that is a conversation for a different thread). Also, I am looking at a flame heated unit due to it's self-sustainability
without any real dependance on outside efforts other than my own physical labor.

Funny, we are running almost the same vehicle. I have run my 6.2L DD engine in a Chevy g-20 van on a wide range of blends of waste oils plus gasoline for 6 years. Mostly I have run WVO blended with gasoline at 20%, and it runs just fine.

However, burning WMO blends nearly ruined my engine, so I would not recommend WMO for that engine, unless it is distilled. Distilling WMO is why I am here, and why I have a pyrolysis section on my forum. However, I plan to pyrolyze plastics, rubber, scrap wood, cow dung, you name it.

I will PM you a link to a thread on a different site that I am on where your input would be appriciative. Long and short, Many folks have mentioned that WMO is risky to run in the 6.2L/6.5L GM, however, there is research being done on the various casting numbers of the cylinder heads, injection pumps, injectors, and fuel filtration systems because some folks have had outstanding results with WMO in these engines, while others avoid it like the plague.

More on topic for this thread, have you successfully ran WMO through your pyrolysis reactor to obtain a safer fuel for our engines (6.2L GM)? Are you titrating your Pyrolized WMO/bio-oil in the same manner as processing WVO into biodiesel? What are your results? I think the processing, blending, and mixing of these fuels does fit into this thread as well. Which also leads to one more question: Why isn't anyone condensing or using a catalyst for making methanol? The methanol produced could be used to further process the diesel produced.

[Tplane37]

I have recently found a great source of plastic. A friend of mine is in upper management at a large soft drink manufacturing facility, he gave me access to upwards of 100 5 gal. syrup buckets with lids and 20 to 30 20gal. syrup drums a day..This is a great free source of plastic. They have been paying to just toss them into a 15yd dumpster.

An old high school friend of mine's father used to work for a simliarly situated large soft drink manufacturing company. I wonder if I could end up with a similar "hook-up" locally.

What types of plastics are acquiring through this source? I am pondering on the shredder question, I am thinking a hydraulic ram and 3-4 screw conveyors joining closely at the output, but set wide enough for the containers at the input (envision just the corners of a 3 or 4 sided pyramid, either up-side-down, or turned 90 degrees on their sides)... the ram to "help" the barrels get started in the shredding chamber...

[Beyond Biodiesel]

Here is what I suggest. Liquid nitrogen being pumped through sealed coils in a double-insulated chest freezer (add the pink foam panel insulation used on the exterior of houses to the outside of the deep freezer is how we have built these freezers before). The dioxines would not make contact with the liquid nitrogen, because the nitrogen would be in its own sealed system. The gases would pass through the chest freezer in a similar way as your ice filled condensers, but flowing liquid nitrogen is as approximately -300 degrees F. This would absolutely quench the exhaust gases... and when the liquid nitrogen goes to a gaseous state after flowing through the freezer, it can be introduced to the reactor as a means of maintaining the oxygen-free environment.

Our goals are not that same as the commercial incineration plant. While the commercial incineration plant just wants the garbage gone at any expense, so they have tried running the exhaust through a second burner and found it did not solve the dioxen problem, in fact it exacerbated the problem; whereas, our goals are to make fuel, so we condense the exhaust stream, which should remove all or most of the dioxens formed during pyrolysis, because dioxens and the other polycyclic halogenated hydrocarbons have a high melting/boiling point.

However, there are several implications here from processing halogenated hydrocarbons:
1) Processing halogenated hydrocarbons means that the inside of your pyrolysis equipment is going to be contaminated with polycyclic halogenated hydrocarbons ie. dioxens and other super-toxins, so the operators are at risk working on the unit.
2) Your fuel will also be contaminated with polycyclic halogenated hydrocarbons ie. dioxens and other super-toxins, which means the exhaust of vehicles burning your fuel will be contaminated with polycyclic halogenated hydrocarbons ie. dioxens and other super-toxins.
3) Your fuel will also become acidified due to the presence of halons in it. imakebiodiesel discussed acidification of our fuel upthread.

This would probably not work with a reflux column. And we are left with another question: What do the dioxines convert to after being quenched? And will the reform in the mixed bio-oil when you do your second run?

Well, that is the problem, as long as you have halons in your pyrolysis unit you are going to be making dioxens and other super-toxins. There is no way around it. So, that is why I want to stay away from halogenated hydrocarbons.

I will PM you a link to a thread on a different site that I am on where your input would be appriciative.

I am doing research, so I am very happy to join other forums discussing turning waste oils into diesel fuel, and various pyrolysis methods.

Long and short, Many folks have mentioned that WMO is risky to run in the 6.2L/6.5L GM, however, there is research being done on the various casting numbers of the cylinder heads, injection pumps, injectors, and fuel filtration systems because some folks have had outstanding results with WMO in these engines, while others avoid it like the plague.

Yes, I am a member of a wide number of diesel forums where burning WMO is on topic. And, most people burning WMO in a 6.2/6.5DD coke their injectors, those who do not have turbo-chargers. So, my conclusion is, if you want to burn undistilled WMO, then you need a turbocharger, regardless of the diesel engine.

More on topic for this thread, have you successfully ran WMO through your pyrolysis reactor to obtain a safer fuel for our engines (6.2L GM)?

I have only produced 10 us gallons (40L) of distilled WMO. I have run some of it in the fuel tank, blended with WVO and gasoline with no observed precipitates, and it ran fine, with no evidence of injector coking.

I have also run some of the distilled WMO in the crankcase with no evidence of sludge formation on the rocker arm.

This weekend I produced 4.75 us gallons of WMO, most of which is motor oil weight, so I plan to drain my engine lube and replace it with the distilled WMO, and run it for a week or more. I hope to distill more WMO this week, and run it was well.

Are you titrating your Pyrolized WMO/bio-oil in the same manner as processing WVO into biodiesel?

No, I am a blender. That means I blend light fractions with heavier fractions to create a middle weight diesel blend. This means most of the time I blend gasoline with WVO at 20%, settle for 1-7 days, then filter.

What are your results?

I have run this blend on my engine for 6 years. I have done the same thing with WMO, and it has always coked my injectors. However, such blends with distilled WMO do not seem to pose a problem.

I think the processing, blending, and mixing of these fuels does fit into this thread as well. Which also leads to one more question: Why isn't anyone condensing or using a catalyst for making methanol? The methanol produced could be used to further process the diesel produced.

Petroleum refineries make methanol via a hydration process, which involves putting methane into a container, pressurizing it in the presence of hydrogen and a catalyst to 1000 PSI and at about 1000F. This makes it completely outside of the DIY enthusiast.

Also, making biodiesel to me is a brain-dead way of turning waste oils into diesel fuel, because blending gasoline with waste oils works very well, and takes much less effort to do.

Sorry to any biodiesel makers. I mean no offense.

[Tplane37]

Our goals are not that same as the commercial incineration plant.

I was focused more on the temperatures achieved in incineration than the reset of the process. Though pyrolysis differ from incineration in several aspects, one basic concept exists in both: high temperatures. I was unable to find anything directly related to neutralizing dioxines in the pyrolysis process.

Well, that is the problem, as long as you have halons in your pyrolysis unit you are going to be making dioxens and other super-toxins. There is no way around it. So, that is why I want to stay away from halogenated hydrocarbons.

You sure know how to burst someone's bubble! But that is a very good point that I did not consider, contamination of the reaction chamber itself. And since it would be counter productive (and probably explosively dangerous) to quench the retort during a run, this is a very good reason to avoid such plastics. The post-run contamination is enough to avoid the process all together, at least in a multi-use processor. If one were to process Fluff, it needs to have its own devoted processor. But from the sounds of things, it is simply to risky to do. Not only for the health and environmental reason, but there are also concerns with laws and regulations in the U.S. that could carry excessive fines and imprisonment. I think I will let this idea alone for now. (not that I won't continue to ponder over time).

I am doing research, so I am very happy to join other forums discussing turning waste oils into diesel fuel, and various pyrolysis methods.

That forum is more closely linked to the mechanical aspects of the end use machine than it is to the pyrolysis process itself. However, if one can easily compliment the other through a little extra manual labor, then we are in good shape.

So, my conclusion is, if you want to burn undistilled WMO, then you need a turbocharger, regardless of the diesel engine.

That is extremely helpful. thank you for that information. I guess I really do need to get to my neighbor's house and talk him out of those spare 6.5 turbo parts to put on my 6.2.

I have only produced 10 us gallons (40L) of distilled WMO. I have run some of it in the fuel tank, blended with WVO and gasoline with no observed precipitates, and it ran fine, with no evidence of injector coking. * * *

No, I am a blender. That means I blend light fractions with heavier fractions to create a middle weight diesel blend. This means most of the time I blend gasoline with WVO at 20%, settle for 1-7 days, then filter.

I am not yet doing either process, I am still in the research stages. I've owned this truck for about a month, and I bought it for the purpose of getting involved with the repurposing various types of waste oils. Now given, a Mercedes diesel would have been a better suited project for what is done here and cheaper too, but I needed a truck, so that's how I ended up with what I have.

I am a ways behind you on the production of usable alternatives to diesel, but once I start producing, and testing, I would like to share my results with you, and would appreciate the same from you... especially if you find something that DOES NOT work in our engine! I am also going to look into the blending process at least briefly. I am one of those types that has to do something to figure out if I want do it again, but I will steer clear of projects that are clearly unsafe by any stretch, as can be noted by the discussion of Fluff (Safety first... if it can't be done safely, then don't do it until it can.)

Petroleum refineries make methanol via a hydration process, which involves putting methane into a container, pressurizing it in the presence of hydrogen and a catalyst to 1000 PSI and at about 1000F. This makes it completely outside of the DIY enthusiast.

Now it's making sense why I cannot find more information on the poduction of methanol! This does not rule it out for me, it just explains a lot. I know of farmers who are converting the methane produced by cow manure that are running it over a catalyst which reacts with the methane to turn it into a liquid state, the liquid is either very similar to, or is methanol. It's a two part catalyst in a down-flow type set up. the vapors are pumped in from the top of a chamber at a low psi (just enough to flow), and the vaopr hit the catalyst bed, then they condensate, and drip out the bottom into a 55 gallon drum. Here's one for you, one of the catalysts... rust! Good old FeO2 (Iron Oxide). I haven't found the second one, they all say "It's a secret." Hmph!

[arens]

@Jetijs

Hi Jetijs!
I just created this account to contact you.
I would like to build/develope the tecnology that you wrote in this forum 3 years ago, and use it in my company to produce fuel in a large scale with, and I want you to be an important part of it with your knowlegde in the field.
Let me know.
Sincerly
Arens Myzyri
arensmyzyri@(gmaildotcom)
skype arens85

[waterboost]

Consistent Fuel

I think we have finally cracked it... fast warm up using the flu pipe waste heat and limiting the reflux to 190 degrees C... The first 20 litres of proper fuel!

Still havent caught a single drop of fuel in my second and third condensers...

Anyone tried their high grade stuff in a 2-stroke engine?

[imakebiodiesel]

Keeping your reflux temp as low as 190C will ensure you get only fully cracked light distillates. I have run my garden strimmer and my chain saw all last summer on this type of fuel with no problems. Less smoke when starting cold and smooth running with very little smell.
I have finally finished my new reactor and hope to do a few test runs with it next week if other(paid) work permits. This retort will hold 50Kg of waste plastic and all the fuel will be condensed in a single water cooled condenser. Later the crude fuel will be separated into kerosene and light distillate. It has a continuous gas purging system and is fully automatic once the retort is filled and the lid is bolted on.



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[PLASTICTRIX]

An old high school friend of mine's father used to work for a simliarly situated large soft drink manufacturing company. I wonder if I could end up with a similar "hook-up" locally.

What types of plastics are acquiring through this source? I am pondering on the shredder question, I am thinking a hydraulic ram and 3-4 screw conveyors joining closely at the output, but set wide enough for the containers at the input (envision just the corners of a 3 or 4 sided pyramid, either up-side-down, or turned 90 degrees on their sides)... the ram to "help" the barrels get started in the shredding chamber...

The soft drink industry uses many different plastics, but unfortunately 99% of drink bottles themselves are PETE (not good for pyrolysis) and from what i understand the manufacturer of the bottles takes back all of the dud/scrap PETE bottles and remelts them anyways, but most of the dud caps are HDPE or PP.. I was only offered the syrup containers, the 5 gal. pails and the standard white or blue 20gal. drums are pure HDPE and are good for pyrolysis. they just give them away or throw them away in a dumpster.

As far as the grinder..I have done alot of thinking and the cheapest most efficient way i can come up with is building a horizontal drum out of a 20 gal. welltrol pressure tank. Wrap tank with chainsaw chain intermittently welded in a spiral "V" pattern spaced about 1/4in apart, that meets in the center much like a snowblower auger. then build a vertical hopper with zero side and anvil clearance so it would, in essence gravity feed itself. It would be powered by a 5hp geared elec. motor so it has a lot of power and spins slow enough as not to create friction/ heat and get gummed up by hot plastic. It should turn any plastic containers into little 1/4in shavings.

[Beyond Biodiesel]

You sure know how to burst someone's bubble!

Well, I like to inspire people to think outside of the envelope, but to do it safely. I was the OSHA health and safety inspector and QC at a food processing plant for several years, so it food quality and health and safety are now ingrained in me.

I have current health problems due to an industrial accident that nearly killed me working overtime at Chevron Research, and I was injured on the job there several times using processes and equipment that were less than safe. And, the lab I worked in had only one middle aged technician, all the rest of us were in our 20s, even though the lab dated back to WWII.

That lab had the remnants of a process that used Hydrofluoric acid at cracking temperatures. I figure they had an accident that killed everyone but the old technician who was probably sick that day.

So, I do not want to be a part of a discussion that has safety hazards that are not clearly understood by all in that discussion.

That is extremely helpful. thank you for that information. I guess I really do need to get to my neighbor's house and talk him out of those spare 6.5 turbo parts to put on my 6.2.

I am not yet doing either process, I am still in the research stages. I've owned this truck for about a month, and I bought it for the purpose of getting involved with the repurposing various types of waste oils. Now given, a Mercedes diesel would have been a better suited project for what is done here and cheaper too, but I needed a truck, so that's how I ended up with what I have.

I am a ways behind you on the production of usable alternatives to diesel, but once I start producing, and testing, I would like to share my results with you, and would appreciate the same from you... especially if you find something that DOES NOT work in our engine! I am also going to look into the blending process at least briefly. I am one of those types that has to do something to figure out if I want do it again, but I will steer clear of projects that are clearly unsafe by any stretch, as can be noted by the discussion of Fluff (Safety first... if it can't be done safely, then don't do it until it can.)

I am always happy to share information on my topics of interest, because I learn quite a bit along the way. There is quite a lot of discussion on burning WMO on a 6.2/6.5 DD forum. I reread through the forum and found everyone who had no trouble burning WMO had a turbo, and everyone who had trouble did not. Link below:
ALTERNATIVE FUELs over 7k mies - Diesel Place : Chevrolet and GMC Diesel Truck Forums

I then found another long discussion of burning WMO in a diesel engine on another forum, where there was one guy who had nothing but trouble, and he had a 6.2L DD engine.
CONVERTING WASTE MOTOR OIL TO DIESEL FUEL - Diesel Bombers
Used motor oil - Diesel Bombers

My forum has a whole section on burning WMO in a diesel engine.
Making Black Diesel (WMO)

There is another factor in why WMO can be burned in some diesel engines, even though they are not turbo-charged. Some people just have access to very clean WMO; whereas most of us get total sludge as WMO. So, I believe it is the translucence factor that can make the difference.
Making Translucent WMO Blend Diesel Fuel

Good work PLASTICTRIX and imakebiodiesel I like to see the photos.

I presently am still working with a 6-gallon (22.7L) retort. I just bought a 10-gallon (37.8L) retort, which will be operational soon. I plan to work toward a 40-50 gallon (150-190L) retort.

[Beyond Biodiesel]

PS:
While on the topic of cracking halogenated hydrocarbons, I ran a 5-gallon sample of waste TCE through my pyrolysis unit about 2 months ago. I recognized the smell, but I could not place it until after I had run it. What a mistake!

At cracking temperature my pyrolysis unit emitted large volumes of HCL gas, which gagged me. Later I found the bubbler handled the HCL gas just fine.

But, opening my condenser traps and retort to extract my samples after the run was very difficult to do, because the odors inside those containers was extremely offensive. So, I would not knowingly crack any halogenated hydrocarbons again.

[Beyond Biodiesel]

As far as the grinder..I have done alot of thinking and the cheapest most efficient way i can come up with is building a horizontal drum out of a 20 gal. welltrol pressure tank. Wrap tank with chainsaw chain intermittently welded in a spiral "V" pattern spaced about 1/4in apart, that meets in the center much like a snowblower auger. then build a vertical hopper with zero side and anvil clearance so it would, in essence gravity feed itself. It would be powered by a 5hp geared elec. motor so it has a lot of power and spins slow enough as not to create friction/ heat and get gummed up by hot plastic. It should turn any plastic containers into little 1/4in shavings.

Perhaps a chipper would work to grind up plastic prior to pysrolysis?

[Excalibur]

Perhaps a chipper would work to grind up plastic

I borrowed two smaller electric home handyman sized garden chippers. Both of those were absolutely pathetic at plastic. Actually they didn't chip branches that well either. Studying the problem I identified a couple of shortcomings. Firstly the blade type wasn't suited to the task and secondly they were well short of enough power. I've worked on proper industrial plastic chippers to appreciate the difference. Their cutters were mounted on a shaft that resembled a crankshaft! Metal detectors were an important part of running them as even a small piece of steel could do untold damage in a split second..
The pic in BB's link hasn't been tested on plastic that I seen but at least it would have enough power.
One possible way to get a chipper that's up to the task would be to watch out for industrial auctions selling redundant plastics factory equipment. Buy one with or without motor as it would be 3 phase anyway, then fit up a large stationary engine or perhaps a car engine to drive it.
Lastly try to get a machine that would swallow a whole 20L cubie at once otherwise you'll have to slit them first on a bandsaw. I tried cutting cubies once on a circular saw and I don't recommend it.

[marjan1545]

Izgleda ko čaša piva

[marjan1545]

Pozdrav, kolji izmenjivač imaš za hlađenje?