How to turn plastic waste into diesel fuel cheaply

[Beyond Biodiesel]

On acids:
Wheels, about a year and a half ago I bumped into large amounts of HCL when distilling a batch of WMO that had been contaminated with TCE. I brought it up here, and it produced a lot of dialog. At first I thought that the acids would react violently with metals, such as aluminum and/or copper. Then IMAKBIODIESEL started looking at the acidification of petroleum distillates, and found that the petroleum industry uses metals to test, and reduce the acidity of their distillates, that is when we all decided that adding reactive metals to the condensing stream was a good idea, so I went back to using copper and aluminum packing for my distillation column. Yes, if there are acids, then that column packing gets very clean looking, like new. And, yes, there are always a small amount of acids produced in cracking, but nothing like what is produced when cracking halogenated hydrocarbons.

On dioxins:
After doing a considerable amount of research on the toxic byproducts of the pyrolysis of halogenated hydrocarbons I had to conclude that dioxins and other "super toxins" will result in the retort if halogenated hydrocarbons are cracked.

On cracked halogenated hydrocarbons:
Even if one were to mitigate for the toxic and acid gasses and dioxins that are the result of cracking halogenated hydrocarbons the resulting distillates are useless as fuels, because they tend to be far too dense, and tend to dissolve elastomers that are commonly used in diesel engines.

The conclusion is cracking halogenated hydrocarbons is not going to be productive for anyone other than the people who make them, so those halogenated hydrocarbons should be shipped back to the manufacturer for recycling.

Most of this research I documents at this link:Toxic by-products of pyrolysis

[fox32]

Hi Fox32. See my post #3079 for details on the activated carbon trial I did. I spoke to the sales rep about my application and he recommended that particular product as the pore size was a good match to "grab" the longer, stringy / "fibrous", greasy molecules from the solution. I believe it is made from charcoal derived from burning coconut husks (maybe from the Philippines?) cooked at high temperature to expand the charcoal / carbon so it has a much larger surface area available to interact with the solution. A bit like a corn kernel compared to a popped corn kernel, much larger and porous surface area after popping.
I expect we could make it at home but I can get it for $4.20/kg if I buy a pallet or so at a time (I use it for other stuff at work) so I wouldn't bother doing it myself.
Col

Thanks Col, i will definetly try it. I think i'l also try to use some BBQ charcoal, and see if i ot any results. The coconut one is damn expensive, 13euros for a filter the size of toothpaste, hence bbq charocal is 80cents a big 5kg bag.


Activated Charcoal diy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dPabNV7TFFo

BeyondBeyodiesel, i am not familliar with this substance called TCE, is there any way to identify it in the feedstock, prior to using it? Also, wouldn't the copper from your condenser affect the quality of the diesel, or are you filtering it after?

[David007]

thanks, non i see you answeer excalibur, but i tray last night with my moonshine for and for about 2 hours, and i make only paraffin but non densse and alcoohl, i dont no what tipe of alcoohl is bad so bad odor...
i put about 1 kg of of mix plastic, and i make about 50 gr of paraffin and alcoolh and white smoke, for 2 hours

i find this site, in forume

Resin identification code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but today i ask in landfill of my citty in italy, about PE/PP but can identify

have practic sample how to identify PE/PP??
if i use only wash bottles i good?

[fox32]

thanks, non i see you answeer excalibur, but i tray last night with my moonshine for and for about 2 hours, and i make only paraffin but non densse and alcoohl, i dont no what tipe of alcoohl is bad so bad odor...
i put about 1 kg of of mix plastic, and i make about 50 gr of paraffin and alcoolh and white smoke, for 2 hours

i find this site, in forume

Resin identification code - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but today i ask in landfill of my citty in italy, about PE/PP but can identify

have practic sample how to identify PE/PP??
if i use only wash bottles i good?

Hey David, welcome to the forum.

Could you post a picture with your moonshine device? To succesfuly make fuels this way you need to invest some, is not going to be cheap, it cost me so far about 400 euros, and i have done it the cheapest way possible, doing most of the work myself and most of the parts i had lying in my yard, and i still need about 200 more to properly finish it.

For a quick identification, you could break a bit of your material, and put it in water. If it floats, it is good for this, except polystirene(it also floats).

You will also need at least 3 thermometers, a proper reflux, and your retort shouuld me made from thick iron (at least 4mm)....

...... and what you really need in case you haven't done it so far, is to read the forum, from the beggining. This way you'l understand the process.

Hope it helps, all the best!


Could i ask, what kind of alcoohl were you producing?

[David007]

hi fox32

i dont no how make photo, but send me your mail, if like to see
grappa (in italia) with translator brandy, i put in side grapes 100 kg and can product about 18-25 liter of brandy (of grapes), but depends from how sugar have grapes.
can make inside and apples and can products calvados (brandy of appels) or what you like.
is simple but always need before to shredder it, grapes only to push with foot, with machine.

[David007]

brandy of grapes is best and cheap, is transparent, is like water.
you can make with how much you like % of alcoolh
but if you make 18-19 grade of alcoohl, is good is normal.
is only a littel more strong oh johny red.
but if you make 20-22 grade of alcoolh is more more strong is like jack daniels.

if you make with grapes with scent, like a "muscat" and brandy with nice scent, but muscat give you 14-16 liter of brandy, for 100 kg brandy.

and if you put inside in tierce (barrel ) of oak, he make gold color and nice scent from oak, is drink of KING.
for this i am expert have my full help
sorry for my inglese (i am from italy),

[David007]

my moonshine cost non more of 100 euro, capacity is about 35 liter

[David007]

fox32, sorry, what is reflux?
my retor in about 2-3 mm is CU (copper) in side have small layer of tin.
if you make moonshine, need to be only in copper+tin inside or just in inox

[wheels]

Acids and Metals and neutralizing

BBD, this is where things start getting very complex, but makes for some very exciting/interesting discussion.
I know I am not going to be able to do this Topic Justice in just one reply, so bare with me and please continue to pose questions and please indeed post your thoughts as I am most certainly not saying I any expert in all on this subject.

This subject is where commercial industry and us little fry take two very different paths. For a start, modern high volume Commercial Crude Oil Refining is carried out in a very different process to what we are doing. Plus they don't have to contend with many of the Acids waste Plastic produce.
Do not go thinking or believing that Commercial scale Wast Plastic processors have it all sorted either. Many do not and as an aside here, be very wary of Machines, Processes and Information coming out of China. Actually there are a couple of other countries that seem dogy too. Anyway, that's a side track. Back to topic.
Many modern Plants these days are using High Pressure Steam Distillation, using pressures of 1000PSI and extreme temperatures and Steam traveling at well over the speed of sound and the actual contact and heating and then cooling time of the hydrocarbon is measured in fractions of a second. That way they can control the fractionating and unwanted byproducts far more precisely.
Also when we are talking about neutralizing Acids with Metals, they are not using actual hard physical Metals as such, but are adding in liquid forms of Chemical variations of Metals and in just the right quantities to negate an undesired by product and no more. They sample/test, sample/test, all the way along the stream and make adjustments or add/subtract to the process to compensate.

We unfortunately can only use a sledgehammer to crack a Nut and resulting in much of the Shell being left with the Nut, so to speak. We simply don't have the ability or facilities to test the stream and we don't have the ability or in many cases the correct materials for making changes to that stream.
The real down side of us using actual Metal to reduce (notice I did not say Neutralize) Acids, is very fact that it does not neutralize. There will still be Acid to some extent passing through in the stream and now with an additional Metal Ion, with perhaps maybe some other compound which has now been created. Plus any possible reaction of the finished mix when it later combusts in the Engine.

There are other far more effective ways of negating acids and cleaning the Fractions, but the current issue for me is where in the stream you place the device.
OK, so I am suggesting a change to peoples "bubbler's" here. But before I go get into that, here firstly is some more info.
The issue of Acid is only one part of the problem. If everyone remains with using pure PE and PP, then HCL is mostly the result. But if pure guaranteed Feedstocks can not be obtained, one has to consider that undesired Plastics may be entering the System. Or it could be that some of the more "experienced" players here, that have decent well designed systems, might want to step out into a slightly wider range of plastics available.
So for me, I have to work with plastics that can produce some extremely dangerous by products. Yet the cleaning is relatively easy. There are two "Scrubbing/Filtering" processes I employ. The first, being the Scrubber. This could be a difficult one in relation to where it gets placed in a stream. At present for my situation, it is toward the end of the process. Although I am now (after finding this site) redesigning my Machine to run off Fuels, so I am going to be testing where in the stream the Scrubber is best situated.
The scrubber is a simple tower with Bubbler situated at the bottom. The Gasses enter at the bottom through the bubbler and then rise up into the tower, where a steady heavily misted stream of strong Sodium Hydroxide/water is rained down through the Tower. This neutralizes any Acids, being Hydrogen Chloride, Hydrogen Cyanide, Chlorine and any other Acid type. This has to be constantly sampled and tested to ensure the PH remains highly Alkaline.
The Sodium Hydroxide also "washes" the oil fractions that have made it that far. It is great for breaking down and filtering out dust particles that have managed to make it through. The water mix and any Oil is separated at the Bubbler and then the water mix is pumped back to the injectors in the tower.

Hydrocarbon Gasses then continue on to the next Tower which is a Molecular sieve of Zeolite, before then being flared off. Although the new model will return that Off Gas to the Reactor or some point in the chain to be used as
additional heating.
For more simple systems, just mixing Sodium Hydroxide in the bubbling water would be helpful. The only problem with bubbling is that some gasses trapped inside the bubble never make contact with the Alkline mix and just pass right on through. This can be helped slightly by breaking the bubbles into far smaller bubbles by expelling the Gasses through a fine sieve on the end of the bubble pipe to introduce the gasses in a multitude of finer bubbles.

The question for me right now, is that now I am interested in Fuels, where do I now place that scrubber, with the view that the water mix will greatly cool down oils/gasses and then stop them distilling to there respective take off point and so that hydrocarbon mix would need reheating again.
Currently I am still using the scrubber at the end stage for convenience, but will test different positions once the machine is back in operation.

I have been spending the last few days making a prototype Fractionating tower for separating the Fuels.

[Excalibur]

fox32, sorry, what is reflux?
my retor in about 2-3 mm is CU (copper) in side have small layer of tin.
if you make moonshine, need to be only in copper+tin inside or just in inox

Reflux is a distillation technique involving the condensation of vapors and the return of this condensate to the system from which it originated.
This sketch is of a reflux, please study and understand. There are lots of posts on this forum about the technique, pictures, comments, etc.

A copper retort is not a suitable for making fuel from plastic. Steel would be a better choice.

[David007]

excalibur

thanks but my inglese non is good for detalis and for tecnique, i am from italy, for this i search to contact "piccolo chimico"

may be someone have the imail of "piccolo chimico"?????????????

[David007]

PET +HHO generator

hi if put inside of reactor, out pippe from hho generator, (idrogen)
Polyethylene terephthalate categoria I

(C10H8O4)n + n4H2 = nC10H8 + nH2O

i think can cooking C10H8 i think this is hidrocarbur + H2O and water vaporize
in condesser can make diesel+water rpt again the proces to separate disel from water!!!

what you think?

[ndsunil]

BBD, this is where things start getting very complex, but makes for some very exciting/interesting discussion.
I know I am not going to be able to do this Topic Justice in just one reply, so bare with me and please continue to pose questions and please indeed post your thoughts as I am most certainly not saying I any expert in all on this subject.

This subject is where commercial industry and us little fry take two very different paths. For a start, modern high volume Commercial Crude Oil Refining is carried out in a very different process to what we are doing. Plus they don't have to contend with many of the Acids waste Plastic produce.
Do not go thinking or believing that Commercial scale Wast Plastic processors have it all sorted either. Many do not and as an aside here, be very wary of Machines, Processes and Information coming out of China. Actually there are a couple of other countries that seem dogy too. Anyway, that's a side track. Back to topic.
Many modern Plants these days are using High Pressure Steam Distillation, using pressures of 1000PSI and extreme temperatures and Steam traveling at well over the speed of sound and the actual contact and heating and then cooling time of the hydrocarbon is measured in fractions of a second. That way they can control the fractionating and unwanted byproducts far more precisely.
Also when we are talking about neutralizing Acids with Metals, they are not using actual hard physical Metals as such, but are adding in liquid forms of Chemical variations of Metals and in just the right quantities to negate an undesired by product and no more. They sample/test, sample/test, all the way along the stream and make adjustments or add/subtract to the process to compensate.

We unfortunately can only use a sledgehammer to crack a Nut and resulting in much of the Shell being left with the Nut, so to speak. We simply don't have the ability or facilities to test the stream and we don't have the ability or in many cases the correct materials for making changes to that stream.
The real down side of us using actual Metal to reduce (notice I did not say Neutralize) Acids, is very fact that it does not neutralize. There will still be Acid to some extent passing through in the stream and now with an additional Metal Ion, with perhaps maybe some other compound which has now been created. Plus any possible reaction of the finished mix when it later combusts in the Engine.

There are other far more effective ways of negating acids and cleaning the Fractions, but the current issue for me is where in the stream you place the device.
OK, so I am suggesting a change to peoples "bubbler's" here. But before I go get into that, here firstly is some more info.
The issue of Acid is only one part of the problem. If everyone remains with using pure PE and PP, then HCL is mostly the result. But if pure guaranteed Feedstocks can not be obtained, one has to consider that undesired Plastics may be entering the System. Or it could be that some of the more "experienced" players here, that have decent well designed systems, might want to step out into a slightly wider range of plastics available.
So for me, I have to work with plastics that can produce some extremely dangerous by products. Yet the cleaning is relatively easy. There are two "Scrubbing/Filtering" processes I employ. The first, being the Scrubber. This could be a difficult one in relation to where it gets placed in a stream. At present for my situation, it is toward the end of the process. Although I am now (after finding this site) redesigning my Machine to run off Fuels, so I am going to be testing where in the stream the Scrubber is best situated.
The scrubber is a simple tower with Bubbler situated at the bottom. The Gasses enter at the bottom through the bubbler and then rise up into the tower, where a steady heavily misted stream of strong Sodium Hydroxide/water is rained down through the Tower. This neutralizes any Acids, being Hydrogen Chloride, Hydrogen Cyanide, Chlorine and any other Acid type. This has to be constantly sampled and tested to ensure the PH remains highly Alkaline.
The Sodium Hydroxide also "washes" the oil fractions that have made it that far. It is great for breaking down and filtering out dust particles that have managed to make it through. The water mix and any Oil is separated at the Bubbler and then the water mix is pumped back to the injectors in the tower.

Hydrocarbon Gasses then continue on to the next Tower which is a Molecular sieve of Zeolite, before then being flared off. Although the new model will return that Off Gas to the Reactor or some point in the chain to be used as
additional heating.
For more simple systems, just mixing Sodium Hydroxide in the bubbling water would be helpful. The only problem with bubbling is that some gasses trapped inside the bubble never make contact with the Alkline mix and just pass right on through. This can be helped slightly by breaking the bubbles into far smaller bubbles by expelling the Gasses through a fine sieve on the end of the bubble pipe to introduce the gasses in a multitude of finer bubbles.

The question for me right now, is that now I am interested in Fuels, where do I now place that scrubber, with the view that the water mix will greatly cool down oils/gasses and then stop them distilling to there respective take off point and so that hydrocarbon mix would need reheating again.
Currently I am still using the scrubber at the end stage for convenience, but will test different positions once the machine is back in operation.

I have been spending the last few days making a prototype Fractionating tower for separating the Fuels.

Wonderful idea , placing the scrubber just after cracking .. as you said one needs to give heating again to have kinetic energy

[ndsunil]

@ WHEELS ,,
You have proposed a wonderful alteration for scrubber placement just after reflux ...as you said one needs heating again .

[wheels]

hi if put inside of reactor, out pippe from hho generator, (idrogen)
Polyethylene terephthalate categoria I

(C10H8O4)n + n4H2 = nC10H8 + nH2O

i think can cooking C10H8 i think this is hidrocarbur + H2O and water vaporize
in condesser can make diesel+water rpt again the proces to separate disel from water!!!

what you think?

Hi David007. OK so if I can decipher your post correctly, you are asking if you can put the output of a hydrogen generator into your Reactor Vessel, thus flooding the Vessel with Hydrogen.
The answer to that is yes, as long as you do NOT allow any Oxygen to enter the Vessel. There is no more potent Explosive than Hydrogen and Oxygen.

The second question looks like you are thinking that PET (C10H8O4) reacting with N4H2 would give you NC10H8 + NH2O. Well N4H2 is not pure Hydrogen. In fact it is about 96.5% Nitrogen and 3.5% Hydrogen. Plus that reaction you have described means the Hydrogen is reacting with Oxygen and producing the H2O or water. It takes a very loud and a Violent Bang to make H2O like that. That is Combustion and the first problem is you need about 15% Oxygen to support combustion and Oxygen is the last thing you want in the Vessel.

However, all that aside, PET can be Pyrolysed. There is Oxygen in it's Formulae, but the Oxygen is decomposed by the Terephthalac Acid.
However it does not produce any Liquid. It decomposes to mostly Gas. You will not get any liquid Fuel from it.
Also PET which is Polyester, is a sort after commodity and can fetch a very high price. It is used to make Polyester Fibres for Carpets, Clothing, Maylar and Rope. It simply is not a Plastic that is worth spending energy on, it is better to recycle it.
I hope that is understandable to you.