How to turn plastic waste into diesel fuel cheaply

[wheels]

[*]Has anybody ever spoken to one of those plant managers or chemist that work for a commercial pyrolysis operation and without having them give away trade secrets provide insight as to the best way to do this on a smaller scale?[*]would members here be willing to join forces to come up with a standard that can guide those to come on how to do this without much trial and error?[*]Would members be willing to create a diary of sorts that can show the do's and dont's and what has and hasn't worked and why? [/LIST]

The reason i asked these questions is because I am interested in building a plant at a scale that can process about 1-2 tons of waste plastic per day. I know alot of you are manufacturing to support your own domestic needs but i am looking at a small scale commercial, and rather than going the cheap Chinese way (no offense to any member that may be Chinese) I would much rather make something that we could copy around the world for others to model.

Firstly, I think you will find all the answers to your first question, if you continue reading the Forum. Pretty much everything has been covered. It is one reason why the place has become a little more quiet now.
It is not so much about trade secrets. This process is carried out in ruffly 750 Commercial plants around the world. The real issues are not making the Fuel. That is actually the easy part.
The First thing you need to look into is what laws your country has in regards to doing this. Some countries have no rules and others have stupendous rules. The next issue will be getting that much plastic of usable quality. The biggest cost all the commercial operations have is sorting and cleaning the Plastic stock. The other problem is storage of the Finished fuel. Then you need to be able to ensure the quality of your fuel. If a customer buys your fuel and their car engine fails, you can bet the first person they will blame is you. Even though it may have nothing to do with you, you are likely the one that has to prove it was not your fuel. Then again, it could have been and you may have to pay for the repair or replacement of an engine. So you may require a liability insurance.
In my Country, to be able to sell a Fuel, it has to be a mix of specific things, so as anybody purchasing a Fuel is getting the same thing anywhere and that it is safe to use in their Car. As soon as a Company produces a Fuel, it has to pay the Gvt a 40% tax. That is before I even sell it.
Then there are Emissions. In many Countries, you have to prove that what is going out the exhaust to atmosphere is safe. You only need a little bit of the wrong plastic to get into the mix and you could produce some very toxic and Corrosive Chemicals.
There are many manufactures of these plants already. Plants are available in almost all sizes and are available from many countries other than China.

[rozier56]

rozier56

Please note that I have answered each of your questions in Blue.

I hope that helps.

On No1. you say no packing required! I find this strange, as all the reflux/distillation columns i know have fillers or tray's in them to help with the distillation process.

[wheels]

On No1. you say no packing required! I find this strange, as all the reflux/distillation columns i know have fillers or tray's in them to help with the distillation process.

That is not anything to do with the reflux. That is a catalyst. There are various types of catalyst and one is as you described, trays filled with a material. The material is a Catalyst that aids in cracking of heavy fractions to smaller ones, except that the Molecule is divided or "cleaved" at specific points in it's chain, so as a particular type of fraction is created. This is how commercial plants create a specific output as efficiently as possible. One of the big benefits is being able to produce a saturated Hydrocarbon, which means the end of the Molecular chain is closed. That stops the chain form coupling with a free oxygen molecule, which causes the fuel to oxides.
All you need for a Reflux is a length of tube in which the Gasses can cool slightly and the very heavy molecules can condense and drop back to the reflux to be reheated. Catalytic beds are often very complex mixes of Chemicals and are usually trade secrets. But for the amateur here, things like Clay pots and Zorite are easy materials to use. The big question is whether they do anything. It is not just about having the gasses pass through the material. A catalytic reaction requires heat to activate it and the result is that a proper catalytic bed becomes a very complex addition to the amateur operation.

[HK11]

Reactor material

Hello everyone. I know it's been years since this has ben done and written about but I do have some questions is case someone answers. Can the reactor be made of iron ? I don't see the necesity of a stainless steel one, unless you hace trouble removing sludge from the bottom and then use chemicals. Also, have you made a retort with a pyrolytic phase ? thanks very much. As far as the plastics, I think LDPE , HDPE asn PP are all the same, You shouldn't be getting parafin out of it. I don't and I am not even near perfecting my reactor.Caution, do not use PS , PVC or PET, not even PC, because you'll regret it.

[wheels]

Hello everyone. I know it's been years since this has ben done and written about but I do have some questions is case someone answers. Can the reactor be made of iron ? I don't see the necesity of a stainless steel one, unless you hace trouble removing sludge from the bottom and then use chemicals. Also, have you made a retort with a pyrolytic phase ? thanks very much. As far as the plastics, I think LDPE , HDPE asn PP are all the same, You shouldn't be getting parafin out of it. I don't and I am not even near perfecting my reactor.Caution, do not use PS , PVC or PET, not even PC, because you'll regret it.

Yes Mild Steel is probably the best material because it is a cheap material and easy to work with.
Stainless is expensive and not needed for this kind of process.
There should not be sludge left in the bottom. It should be a dry carbon. It needs to be chipped out. Do not use chemicals.
i don't understand what you mean re the retort and pyrolytic phase. Can you explain that in different words.
Yes HDPE and LDPE are both Polyethylene. C2H4. Melting point varies from 115 to 135degC, depending on density type.
Polypropylene C3H6. Melting points range from 130 up to 170degC because there are several different types.
PS, as in the White Expanded stuff used as a packaging filler, Insulation in a solid panel form etc, is OK to use, but makes a clear liquid of MethylBenzene. It is more like Petrol than a Diesel.
ABS can not be used. It contains Bromine or other chemicals used as Fire retardants. It also contains a lot of materials to give it it's solid characteristics. Clay is the most common.
PET can not be used. It goes from a Solid to a Gas and then when it cools, it returns to it's origin of a White crystalised powder substance.
PVC is dangerous! It produces a large volume of Hydrogen Chloride and that at 300 to 400 degC is highly dangerous.
Sorry, what is PC???

[sunilkm153]

Yes Mild Steel is probably the best material because it is a cheap material and easy to work with.
Stainless is expensive and not needed for this kind of process.
There should not be sludge left in the bottom. It should be a dry carbon. It needs to be chipped out. Do not use chemicals.
i don't understand what you mean re the retort and pyrolytic phase. Can you explain that in different words.
Yes HDPE and LDPE are both Polyethylene. C2H4. Melting point varies from 115 to 135degC, depending on density type.
Polypropylene C3H6. Melting points range from 130 up to 170degC because there are several different types.
PS, as in the White Expanded stuff used as a packaging filler, Insulation in a solid panel form etc, is OK to use, but makes a clear liquid of MethylBenzene. It is more like Petrol than a Diesel.
ABS can not be used. It contains Bromine or other chemicals used as Fire retardants. It also contains a lot of materials to give it it's solid characteristics. Clay is the most common.
PET can not be used. It goes from a Solid to a Gas and then when it cools, it returns to it's origin of a White crystalised powder substance.
PVC is dangerous! It produces a large volume of Hydrogen Chloride and that at 300 to 400 degC is highly dangerous.
Sorry, what is PC???

PC mean polycabonate these are polymers associated with carbonate group to give it temp resistance and impact resistance normally it is called as engineering plastic Yes it may be pyrolysed but simple thermal pyrolysis here will not provide good results If you use ethylene glycol or other glycol series solvent as intermediate you get excellent result

[wheels]

PC mean polycabonate these are polymers associated with carbonate group to give it temp resistance and impact resistance normally it is called as engineering plastic Yes it may be pyrolysed but simple thermal pyrolysis here will not provide good results If you use ethylene glycol or other glycol series solvent as intermediate you get excellent result

Arrr, yes of course. PC is yet another that should not be Pyrolised. The there are two reasons.
Firstly, it is made from Bisphenol A (BPA). When it is heated to Pyrolysis temperatures, it produces some very long worded chemicals, abbreviated to TBBA, APP and TBP. APP produces Ammonia which s dangerous. Because PC is an engineering plastic, many products also have a fire retardant incorporated in it. That is the TBBA or tetrabromobisphenol, which produces Bromine, a Halogen.

[sunilkm153]

Arrr, yes of course. PC is yet another that should not be Pyrolised. The there are two reasons.
Firstly, it is made from Bisphenol A (BPA). When it is heated to Pyrolysis temperatures, it produces some very long worded chemicals, abbreviated to TBBA, APP and TBP. APP produces Ammonia which s dangerous. Because PC is an engineering plastic, many products also have a fire retardant incorporated in it. That is the TBBA or tetrabromobisphenol, which produces Bromine, a Halogen.

http://www.fsrj.org/act/7_nenkai/12-...FSR05/R-14.pdf
Catalytic and thermal pyrolysis of polycarbonate in a fixed-bed reactor: The effect of catalysts on products yields and composition
I am not an chemistry person but from my practical experience and after going through many research studies I must say that pyrolysis of polycarbonate can be done safely these above above two links shows pyrolysis of polycabonate can be done safely as wheels mentioned i never experienced ammonia or bromine output during pyrolysis of polycabonate with intermediate solvent dear friends not every thing is practically possible what theoretically written in books but be hopeful opposite is also possible

[sunilkm153]

[QUOTE=Clean Tech;282193]Hello everyone,

I have been reading this thread for a while now (admittedly not all of it) and i see where a number of ppl have been having success in converting waste plastic into a fuel. I commend those who have been able to achieve their results thus far and applaud this community for the work that they have done in sharing the knowledge gained so far.

I do have some questions though i wish some of the more experienced members here can help me with.

1. Has anybody ever spoken to one of those plant managers or chemist that work for a commercial pyrolysis operation and without having them give away trade secrets provide insight as to the best way to do this on a smaller scale?
2. would members here be willing to join forces to come up with a standard that can guide those to come on how to do this without much trial and error?
3. Would members be willing to create a diary of sorts that can show the do's and dont's and what has and hasn't worked and why?

The reason i asked these questions is because I am interested in building a plant at a scale that can process about 1-2 tons of waste plastic per day. I know alot of you are manufacturing to support your own domestic needs but i am looking at a small scale commercial, and rather than going the cheap Chinese way (no offense to any member that may be Chinese) I would much rather make something that we could copy around the world for others to model.(/QUOTE)


Yes since last one and half years I was working with my own 2 ton/day plant and same concept is now successfully upgraded ( upgraded does not mean extension or addition of few parts to old plant but the old plant is kept in ware house and a totally new one is built ) to 5 ton/day continuous plant and for the same after successful trials commercial production is also started

[wheels]

http://www.fsrj.org/act/7_nenkai/12-...FSR05/R-14.pdf
Catalytic and thermal pyrolysis of polycarbonate in a fixed-bed reactor: The effect of catalysts on products yields and composition

That article is incorrect. They are referring to WEEE plastics which they have incorrectly called Polycarbonate. But WEEE plastics are in fact ABS plastic. WEEE plastics contain flame retardants. The most common is Bromine. Bromine is a Halogen. Bromine is both Toxic and a very powerful corrosive to metals.
Whether it is ABS or Polycarbonate, if you are processing a plastic that has a flame retardant in it, you will be corroding the inside of your retort and all the pipe work. Secondly, you will have Bromine in your fuel produced. It produces a Redish Brown colour and has a strong smell. If this is not removed, you will damage an engine, but at the least, Bromine will be retarding the burning process of the fuel and you will not have the power that would normally be produced.
Bromine in very small amounts can used as a disinfectant and has been used in swimming pools, but has been discontinued from such use because of People having serious skin reactions to it.
DO NOT get the fuel on your skin. You can end up with a very bad skin reaction.
If you are putting a Halogen via the output gas into the atmosphere, you are running the risk of killing or poisoning people, or at the least, causing damage to the Ozone layer in our atmosphere.
It is dangerous enough for the amateur processing small amounts of plastics and several of us here are very vocal about safety to ensure people remain safe. But unless you understand what it is you are processing, the Chemistry of such, the Dangers and the potential damage you can cause to environment and peoples Vehicles, YOU SHOULD NOT be trying to do this commercially. You will note that all the commercial Plastic to Fuel plants around the world process two plastic types only. Simply because they are the safest. That is PE and PP. They do not touch any other plastic type due to the dangers of doing such and just one plastic item of a wrong type can contaminate and make useless for sale, 1000ltrs of good fuel.

[rozier56]

rozier56

If one takes a look at Excaliburs home page, you look at his reflux system, you will see that he has packed the inside with metal coils to assist the process.
Is this not recommended? Thanks.

Is the application of catalyst i.e. clay/ zeolite reused for a few burns? How do you know when to replace such catalyst?
Is the catalyst added in the gas phase or by passing your condensate/diesel through it/

[wheels]

If one takes a look at Excaliburs home page, you look at his reflux system, you will see that he has packed the inside with metal coils to assist the process.
Is this not recommended? Thanks.

Is the application of catalyst i.e. clay/ zeolite reused for a few burns? How do you know when to replace such catalyst?
Is the catalyst added in the gas phase or by passing your condensate/diesel through it/

I will leave it to excalibur to explain what the coils or whatever they are, are for.
Remember that firstly he is dealing with WMO. That firstly is a heavy weight molecule and has a much higher Boiling point. The Molecules in Vapor form need a lot more cracking than the outputs of Plastics. You can't compare the two feedstocks. There are many points to consider and unless you have the exact design Excalibur has, one variance will change the outcome.
Feedstock type,
Heating Power input,
Retort design and volume,
Reflux design and volume,
Pipe work size/flow rate.
You have to remember that a Pyrolysis plant is a large Chemistry set. One change in the set will change the result of the output.

Catalyst: What a Catalyst does, ii it produces a chemical reaction. Normally a Chemical reaction means all components reacting change from one thing to another. The difference with a catalyst is that there are several parts to a reaction and the final part is that the catalyst that was used in the first part of the reaction is regenerated in the second part, thus the catalyst is never used up. Because it is a Chemical Reaction, all reactions require energy. Some reactions produce energy(exothermic) some suck up energy(endothermic) and some require outside energy. Energy is seen as heat of course. For a catalyst, usually an energy input is required to get the reaction started, then the reaction usually becomes exothermic and self sustaining. ( usually, but not always the case in Chemistry)
So do not confuse a Catalyst with a filter. A Molecular Filter will become clogged and need cleaning after use. A Catalyst does not work that way.
Do you need a catalyst?? That is a real difficult one to answer is also related to the list above. It is a case of needing try and see what happens. Catalysts are highly protected secrets in the Commercial industry and they are used to break a Molecular chain in a very specific way, that recracking via heat cannot do. But you need access to some expensive equipment to test if you are making the required output. You also need a good knowledge of Petrochemistry.
If you are getting an output that works for you, I would not bother with a catalyst. If you are having problems with oxidising or a too heavy fraction, you may improve things with a catalyst. But using one is complex. Catalysts can also produce cracking at very much lower temperatures and thus produce a greater amount of Fuel rather than Gas as an output.
My plant uses a Catalyst to eliminate Bromine. It is one of the few catalytic reactions that use up the catalyst instead of regeneration.

[sunilkm153]

That article is incorrect. They are referring to WEEE plastics which they have incorrectly called Polycarbonate. But WEEE plastics are in fact ABS plastic. WEEE plastics contain flame retardants. The most common is Bromine. Bromine is a Halogen. Bromine is both Toxic and a very powerful corrosive to metals.
Whether it is ABS or Polycarbonate, if you are processing a plastic that has a flame retardant in it, you will be corroding the inside of your retort and all the pipe work. Secondly, you will have Bromine in your fuel produced. It produces a Redish Brown colour and has a strong smell. If this is not removed, you will damage an engine, but at the least, Bromine will be retarding the burning process of the fuel and you will not have the power that would normally be produced.
Bromine in very small amounts can used as a disinfectant and has been used in swimming pools, but has been discontinued from such use because of People having serious skin reactions to it.
DO NOT get the fuel on your skin. You can end up with a very bad skin reaction.
If you are putting a Halogen via the output gas into the atmosphere, you are running the risk of killing or poisoning people, or at the least, causing damage to the Ozone layer in our atmosphere.
It is dangerous enough for the amateur processing small amounts of plastics and several of us here are very vocal about safety to ensure people remain safe. But unless you understand what it is you are processing, the Chemistry of such, the Dangers and the potential damage you can cause to environment and peoples Vehicles, YOU SHOULD NOT be trying to do this commercially. You will note that all the commercial Plastic to Fuel plants around the world process two plastic types only. Simply because they are the safest. That is PE and PP. They do not touch any other plastic type due to the dangers of doing such and just one plastic item of a wrong type can contaminate and make useless for sale, 1000ltrs of good fuel.

yes you may be right that bromine or halogen output may be there in oil and gas but dear friend please get through my statement properly where i mentioned pyrolysis of such flame retardant or brominated plastic can be done safely only with some intermediate solvent thermal pyrolysis can't remove these halogens from oil or gas but when we use these intermediary solvents these halogen get trapped in carbon char leaving oil and gas totally free don't blame these scientists and there article as fake these are renowned persons and the platform where this research paper is presented is ISFR ( International Symposium for Feed stock Recycling held once every two year in different parts of world ) where 300-400 experts from all over the world participate in it . Also I myself attended this prestigious conference

[wheels]

yes you may be right that bromine or halogen output may be there in oil and gas but dear friend please get through my statement properly where i mentioned pyrolysis of such flame retardant or brominated plastic can be done safely only with some intermediate solvent thermal pyrolysis can't remove these halogens from oil or gas but when we use these intermediary solvents these halogen get trapped in carbon char leaving oil and gas totally free don't blame these scientists and there article as fake these are renowned persons and the platform where this research paper is presented is ISFR ( International Symposium for Feed stock Recycling held once every two year in different parts of world ) where 300-400 experts from all over the world participate in it . Also I myself attended this prestigious conference

This is what I do. My Plant is used to dispose of toxic plastics.
Bromine is NOT left behind in the Carbon waste. Or not all of it that is. The vast majority passes through with the Fuel.
In saying that, how do you clean, handle and dispose of the Carbon waste? It is deadly toxic and highly carcinogenic. Even if you only process PP and PE, it is still a serious Hazard. WMO is worse than PP and PE and also needs serious consideration when cleaning.
There is a very big difference between doing this for real in a commercial plant and doing this as an experiment in a Lab. If it was not for the dangers and damage it can cause to Plant, many Commercial Fuel producing plants would be using these plastics. Many around the World are struggling to get enough Plastic and having another plastic type they can use would be a huge advantage to them.

[Excalibur]

If one takes a look at Excaliburs home page, you look at his reflux system, you will see that he has packed the inside with metal coils to assist the process.
Is this not recommended? Thanks.
/

I improvised with my reflux packing to use what I had from the scrap pile. In a Refinery, one distillation setup uses packing called raschig rings or berl saddles. Whatever the packing type, the object is to promote better intimate contact between falling condensate and rising vapors. Think of it like this, as cooler condensate falls it has to run over the packing and is spread across a large area. The rising vapor is hotter and upon contact with condensate, it encourages any lighter fractions to boil and rise. Heavier fractions remain condensed and continue to fall. Don't confuse this method with a catalyst.
When I rebuild my plant I'll probably go with raschig rings as these are easy and could be ideally made from scrap stainless tube/pipe.