Spark-gap + Step-down-transformer = OU?

[nilrehob]

In absolute theoretical cases. But I doubt it be as significant as that in practice. But it's a rather simple experiment. You can compare inductive energy like you did before by converting it to electrical in a cap. 2 Setups:

Primary small angled coil energized and then letting it discharge into a cap. Then same experiment but this time you put the cap on the big angled coil. And hopefully you'll see more voltage there in the cap.

The other experiment needs you to energy both coils in series and discharge them in series, and comparing it to only opening the switch on the small angled coil and discharging through the second in the same cap.

I just want to point out that I made a typo, it should be COP=θout/θin,
and since θout is always 2π COP is proportional to 1/θin, or just 1/θ for short.
Theoretically, that is.

/Hob

[Jbignes5]

Why reinvent the wheel?

So what about three parallel windings,
each occupying 120deg of the toroid and having N turns each for input,
and then a wider and thicker winding with N turns on top (or under?) as output?
But on the other hand, parallel windings lower the inductance ...

I have to dig up the Bob Boyce documents lying on my hard-drive somewhere.

/Hob

BEST AVAILABLE COP - Google Patent Search

Look at the part of the first diagram labeled transformer!

[broli]

Attached is an illustration of the setup where only one coil is energized and the other collects the field. The collector coil is split for better distribution. But both have a total winding of 24 turns.

Edit: Oh boy I have reversed the roles. The dense blue coil should be energized.
Edit2: Attached correct illustration.

[nilrehob]

BEST AVAILABLE COP - Google Patent Search

Look at the part of the first diagram labeled transformer!

Not reinventing, rather rediscovering, if we're lycky
And yes, that patent *is* interesting,
I think I'll reread a lot after this conversation.

/Hob

[nilrehob]

Attached is an illustration of the setup where only one coil is energized and the other collects the field. The collector coil is split for better distribution. But both have a total winding of 24 turns.

Nice drawing!

I was thinking maybe ordinary solenoids *will* work:
one multilayer winding as output near core,
and then another multilayer winding as input on top?
Same N, but different radius.
But then A gets affected, so I guess it won't work after all.
Ok, toroid it is.

/Hob

[nilrehob]

Edit: Oh boy I have reversed the roles. The dense blue coil should be energized.
Edit2: Attached correct illustration.

I know, its too easy to make an error

I made a small calculation on my last post on ordinary solenoids with one multilayer coil inside another, having same length and N, and I think it actually will work.

/Hob

[Jbignes5]

Yeah I'm betting this is the lockridge device...

Not reinventing, rather rediscovering, if we're lycky
And yes, that patent *is* interesting,
I think I'll reread a lot after this conversation.

/Hob

Interesting indeed. I have been studying it for over a year now and I think I'm about to build it. If you look at the patent like it is one motor just different modules you will start to see what I am seeing. In fact I think this is the Tesla Pierce arrow experiment. The "motor" Was specially built for him by Westinghouse. I doubt they knew what they were making.

[broli]

I think it's about time I order a toroid and an LRC meter. Have been putting off the later for quite some time.

I'm looking at this core: LARGE SIZE FERRITE RING fba20b on eBay (end time 07-Feb-11 10:37:26 GMT)

[nilrehob]

I think it's about time I order a toroid and an LRC meter. Have been putting off the later for quite some time.

I'm looking at this core: LARGE SIZE FERRITE RING fba20b on eBay (end time 07-Feb-11 10:37:26 GMT)

Yes, I'll look for one too

/Hob

[nilrehob]

Lets generalize this a bit further by saying L=G*N²
where G is the geometry part of the formula for a given type of coil that does not includes the N² part.

Then we have

L=G*N²
Φ=G*N*I
E=½*G*N²*I²

If flux is preserved we have

Gin*Nin*Iin=Gout*Nout*Iout

which gives

Iout=Gin*Nin*Iin / Gout*Nout

Put this into COP and we get

COP = Eout/Ein =
½*Gout*Nout²*Iout² / ½*Gin*Nin²*Iin² =
Gout*Nout²*(Gin*Nin*Iin / Gout*Nout)² / Gin*Nin²*Iin² =
Gout*Nout²*Gin²*Nin²*Iin² / Gin*Nin²*Iin²*Gout²*Nout² =
Gin/Gout

or simply

COP = Gin/Gout

If I'm correct we don't have to count the number of turns or anything,
we just have to pay attention to the geometry of the coils.

/Hob

[broli]

If I'm correct we don't have to count the number of turns or anything,
we just have to pay attention to the geometry of the coils.
/Hob

You are correct. As we already established that changing windings keeps flux AND energy constant. But experimentally it's easier to compare inductance if you know the windings are equal. That way the inductance ratio is only attributed to geometry and should give you a direct COP ratio. If there is indeed an energy increase due to flux conservation.

[nilrehob]

Attached is an illustration of the setup where only one coil is energized and the other collects the field. The collector coil is split for better distribution. But both have a total winding of 24 turns.

Edit: Oh boy I have reversed the roles. The dense blue coil should be energized.
Edit2: Attached correct illustration.

Why not put the two blue primaries in parallel?

/Hob

[nilrehob]

You are correct. As we already established that changing windings keeps flux AND energy constant. But experimentally it's easier to compare inductance if you know the windings are equal. That way the inductance ratio is only attributed to geometry and should give you a direct COP ratio. If there is indeed an energy increase due to flux conservation.

So if we look at cylindrical air-core coils the formula for L is:


Inductor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If u and K are constant this gives COP = Ain*lout / Aout*lin
which is what we have in the Tesla-coil
input-coil is short and big radius
output-coil is long and small radius

/Hob

[broli]

So if we look at cylindrical air-core coils the formula for L is:


Inductor - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If u and K are constant this gives COP = Ain*lout / Aout*lin
which is what we have in the Tesla-coil
input-coil is short and big radius
output-coil is long and small radius

/Hob

Be careful with decreasing area. When you decrease area manually by literally shrinking it gradually you can obviously see the density increase. However when you do it abruptly by jumping to a smaller coil what makes you assume that the flux that is outside of the new area will be suddenly jump inwards as well. I hope you understand what I mean.

[nilrehob]

Be careful with decreasing area. When you decrease area manually by literally shrinking it gradually you can obviously see the density increase. However when you do it abruptly what makes you assume that the flux that is outside of the new area will be suddenly jump inwards as well. I hope you understand what I mean.

Yes, i thought of that too, toroid wins again.

/Hob