Cross Field Capacitor

[Armagdn03]

Patents by Louis R. O'Hare
US 4,074,129 and 4,151,409. He has others.
Interesting reading to go along with this thread.

Light variable dielectric via phosphor...cool.

Phase transition is very interesting.

[Armagdn03]

In this thread I was showing an interesting capacity switching device, which plays conduction against capacitive flux.

There should be an inverse corollary to this concept. One could call it the cross field inductor.


I tested this idea out with several other inventors while I was on a trip recently.

The idea was simple, wind a toroid out of iron wire. Around this iron toroid, wind copper windings, so that they go from center of toroid to periphery. Thus the iron windings making the toroid, and the copper windings are 90 degrees out of phase (physically orthogonal to each other).

In this setup there is no mutual induction between the iron windings and the copper windings because of their 90 degree relationship.

The idea was to charge the copper inductor THROUGH the iron inductor, then discharge the copper inductor ALONE.

This way, the coil setup charges at a lower inductance, and discharges at a HIGHER inductance, which is the INVERSE of the cross field capacitor, which charges at a high capacitance, and discharges at a low capacitance.

Unfortunately, my test did not work! the reason was because the permeability of the iron wire toroid was huge! The current I sent through the toroid caused a distributed magnetic field around the toroid which was not large enough to cause a change in its permeability. However if one used a concentrated flux source (neo magnet) the iron toroid would decrease permeability. Thus the distributed flux was not enough to cause a change, but the concentrated flux was, this is a function of the core material. This makes sense if we think of the magnetic toroid as a magnetic circuit (because it is). If we create a large resistance at any point in this circuit with a concentrated flux source like a magnet, we create a magnetic resistor in the circuit, which causes the current (magnetic flux) to decrease at any given point along the circuit.

So, this setup did not work, however it was a material problem.

The concept is still valid, how do you charge at one inductance and discharge at another???

[Armagdn03]

Here is one way to do a variable inductor by my friend Erfinder, which was mentioned in the Bedini Ferris Wheel thread on page 5.

Finally, someone else is experiencing this phenomena and talking about it....I was experimenting some time ago, Armagdn03 can vouch for this as I mentioned the experiment to him....I was trying to find a simple method for dynamically changing the inductance of a coil....the idea was to charge a coil in a low impedance state and allow it to discharge in a high impedance state. I wanted the inductive kickback of a high impedance, and the charging time constant of a low impedance coil.

Charge the coil in low impedance mode, and then switch the coil impedance characteristic to high and discharge the coil at a higher impedance.

This task was accomplished using a trifilar coil (untwisted). Two of the windings are connected in series, and the third winding is the control....

The two series connected windings measured 36mH. When the third (control) winding was shorted on itself it the inductance of the series connected windings dropped to 3.6mH, thats a change of 10:1, and all you did to get that incredible change was short the third (control) winding on itself...

[Armagdn03]

Here is one way to do a variable inductor by my friend Erfinder, which was mentioned in the Bedini Ferris Wheel thread on page 5.

And here is a mind blowing statement given to us as a response to Erfinder by John Bedini concerning Floyd Sweet

Armagdn03.
That is how you would do it, Erfinder is right in what he is saying but you want to self bias this from the pulse and he is correct with the statement untwisted wires. Now I'm going to say something I should not. Floyd Sweet was privileged to work with the Germans after WW2.

He pulled this trick on me with the VTA except I caught him and was booted out he only made it look like he condition the magnets . The Germans already had developed, kept away from the people rotating mag amps and Sweet worked on them. ( He was an electromagnetic expert in this field)

It was funny to me when I would go over to Sweet's place with the coils I wound for him and when I would leave it would be working the next day. I asked him to remove the 100 watt power Amplifier and he refused so I left then was asked to never return by Tom Bearden, Tom did not know as I never told him.

Tom even brought one over to me to test away from Foyd's house where it was working before Tom left to have it tested. Floyd went nuts when Tom told him he was testing this at my shop. It did not work.

So what ever GE had knowalage of , Floyd knew How, but I can make this machine work either way. Erfinder is right and should continue to experiment with this. The Germans already had over unity devices and were using them and the Mag Amp was at the root of that.

So the Vacuum Triode Amplifier used a mag amp as the core of its operating principle!

[Armagdn03]

As you guys can see what I am trying to do here is create as close to possible a passive device, which is either an inductor or capacitor, which changes its own inductive or capacitive property during the action of charge and discharge.

[SilverToGold]

I think I can see what you're describing but do you have a picture or diagram to make it 100% clear?

The idea was simple, wind a toroid out of iron wire. Around this iron toroid, wind copper windings, so that they go from center of toroid to periphery. Thus the iron windings making the toroid, and the copper windings are 90 degrees out of phase (physically orthogonal to each other).

In this setup there is no mutual induction between the iron windings and the copper windings because of their 90 degree relationship.

[SilverToGold]

You can do basically the same thing with the capacitor.

You have 4 plates sandwiched, 2 pairs of caps.

*************** < Top Plate of Cap 1
########### < Top Plate of Cap 2
########### < Bottom Plate of Cap 2
*************** < Bottom Plate of Cap 1

You can change the "apparent" capacitance of one pair just by shorting the other pair's leads.

If you connect this up to an RLC circuit and connect the leads, you will see a change in the resonance frequency of the RLC circuit. So it does appear to change the capacitance BUT if you were to charge one pair of plates and suddenly connect or disconnect the leads to the other pair of plates, the voltage on the charged plate does not change. So it's not able to "pump" charges.

I say apparent because though it does change the capacitance in a real way under some circumstances, I do not believe it is able to pump charges like a true variable capacitance from my experimentation.

If it is analogous to the variable inductor described below, it may have a similar condition.

Getting a meter reading of change and getting a true change in every sense of the word are not the same thing with these systems from my experience.

Only putting these systems under conditions of performance can we see if they truly work.

Here is one way to do a variable inductor by my friend Erfinder, which was mentioned in the Bedini Ferris Wheel thread on page 5.

Finally, someone else is experiencing this phenomena and talking about it....I was experimenting some time ago, Armagdn03 can vouch for this as I mentioned the experiment to him....I was trying to find a simple method for dynamically changing the inductance of a coil....the idea was to charge a coil in a low impedance state and allow it to discharge in a high impedance state. I wanted the inductive kickback of a high impedance, and the charging time constant of a low impedance coil.

Charge the coil in low impedance mode, and then switch the coil impedance characteristic to high and discharge the coil at a higher impedance.

This task was accomplished using a trifilar coil (untwisted). Two of the windings are connected in series, and the third winding is the control....

The two series connected windings measured 36mH. When the third (control) winding was shorted on itself it the inductance of the series connected windings dropped to 3.6mH, thats a change of 10:1, and all you did to get that incredible change was short the third (control) winding on itself...

[Web000x]

Armagdn03,

You are on to something. Everybody should pay attention to everything that you have been posting recently.

In Eric Dollard's publication titled "Symbolic Representation of the Generalized Electric Wave", he clearly states that the production of energy is caused by either decreasing the capacitance or raising the inductance with respect to time.

Although I am still in design mode, It is going to be cool when I build a device that operates on both principles in a push/pull fashion.

Have you had good success using you "Cross Field Capacitor" design?

Did you have any trouble with leakage currents in that setup?

I tried the solid state capacity switching tube that you showed, but had too much leakage current for practical use. I think SilverToGold also confirmed that.

Thanks,

Dave

[Armagdn03]

If you separate out the elements to the cross field capacitor, and run a current through the water dielectric, it does act like a charge pump.

The question is, and Im building a larger one to find out, is does it act like a charge pump when it is its own source of capacity change.

Even if you cannot accomplish this goal (capacity or inductive change to synthesize energy) within the same movement (capacitor through its own dielectric) you can separate out the elements.

You could treat this like a transmission line. The idea is to have many "cells" hooked in series, each one discharges through the dielectric of the next then into an inductor for recycling. (the idea is that the energy from the electric pulse can be conserved by creating a transmission line ring circuit, where the capacitive elements are the cross field capacitor).

[Armagdn03]

like you guys said earlier, the high voltage makes these systems hard, because they need good insulation. I am not equipped to make much at the current moment and so am having trouble fabricating even this simple cell. With lots of leakage, measurements become more difficult.

If I had my way, I would probably try and find some material which had a good balance between high dielectric constant and high dielectric breakdown. This could be coated with foil, or conductive paint. A blank microwave PCB board would be great, many are made with kevlar, but this may be a hard item to find.

Then just build a Plexi glass enclosure to house these plates, it would be well insulated by design.

This could also be built into a cell, where many plates discharge through a common water channel. lots of ideas, with no resources at the moment

[SilverToGold]

That's quite a claim! I'll guess I'm going to have to build one now and see if I can verify this.

If you separate out the elements to the cross field capacitor, and run a current through the water dielectric, it does act like a charge pump.

[SilverToGold]

Dave, there is a definite problem with leakage in the test setup but there is a pretty easy fix for that. Place the tube in a PVC pipe. Make the electrodes that surround the tube out of thicker copper pipes with rounded edges and polished surfaces. Attach high voltage wire to the copper pipes in a fashion that is as smooth as possible at the joint. Then encase the entire thing in a silicon pour used for making molds. That silicone has a pretty good dielectric strength.

With the design for the cross field capacitor, I would move towards using round electrodes that are thicker so the edges could be rounded also.

Even with small capacitances, these systems can work very well because the important factor in designing these systems is high voltage and high capacitive ratio between the max and min capacitances of the system.

Did you have any trouble with leakage currents in that setup?

I tried the solid state capacity switching tube that you showed, but had too much leakage current for practical use. I think SilverToGold also confirmed that.

[Armagdn03]

Hello, I have played with the C Stack a lot, years and years ago, even used to ham it up with the inventor.

The C-Stack by Cris Paltenghe



It is easy to see why the C stack from Chris Paltenghe does not work as a charge pump when shorting certain plates. The shorting of the plates, causes an increase in capacitance because it makes the active plates look like they are closer together. When you disconnect, the charges which were redistributed to increase the capacitance are still held in position due to the coulomb forces from the plates which were originally charged. IT cannot work a a charge pump in this configuration.

In the cross field capacitor, the energy of the capacitor is partially held in polarized and aligned water molecules. Through conduction, this alignment which made the plates look closer together, is disrupted, and so the plates are effectively separated, causing the decrease in capacitance.

In the C stack, (four plate capacitor) the change in capacitance causes an internal redistribution charge, litterally adding surface area to the equation to cause an effect in capacitance.

In the Cross Field Capacitor, there is no addition to surface area, and the charge does not redistribute to new surface area, it is actually changing its dielectric constant.

See the difference?

One increases capacitance through addition of surface area (charges are then locked into place until shorted through coulomb forces)

One decreases capacitance through change in the dielectric constant.

[Armagdn03]

Dave, there is a definite problem with leakage in the test setup but there is a pretty easy fix for that. Place the tube in a PVC pipe. Make the electrodes that surround the tube out of thicker copper pipes with rounded edges and polished surfaces. Attach high voltage wire to the copper pipes in a fashion that is as smooth as possible at the joint. Then encase the entire thing in a silicon pour used for making molds. That silicone has a pretty good dielectric strength.

With the design for the cross field capacitor, I would move towards using round electrodes that are thicker so the edges could be rounded also.

Even with small capacitances, these systems can work very well because the important factor in designing these systems is high voltage and high capacitive ratio between the max and min capacitances of the system.

I agree with your assessment about Leakage, This is a roadblock which can be solved through good ol classical engineering, and is not really a problem. The fact that the effect we are looking for can be achieved is the real big winner of a fact.

[SilverToGold]

That's what I also came to realize about the C stack and why I gave up using if for such use in capacitive energy devices.

That's an interesting theory about your Cross Field Capacitor and I will definitely check it out now.

Shouldn't be hard to build a useful one. If it can really pump charges, it would be interesting to see what type of frequencies the capacitance can be varied and what ration of capacitive change it can achieve.

If this really works, it would be VERY useful and more practical than the plasma variable cap as far as ease of implementation goes.

What did you use to increase the conductivity of your water? What type of water did you use?

Hello, I have played with the C Stack a lot, years and years ago, even used to ham it up with the inventor.

It is easy to see why the C stack from Chris Paltenghe does not work as a charge pump when shorting certain plates. The shorting of the plates, causes an increase in capacitance because it makes the active plates look like they are closer together. When you disconnect, the charges which were redistributed to increase the capacitance are still held in position due to the coulomb forces from the plates which were originally charged. IT cannot work a a charge pump in this configuration.

In the cross field capacitor, the energy of the capacitor is partially held in polarized and aligned water molecules. Through conduction, this alignment which made the plates look closer together, is disrupted, and so the plates are effectively separated, causing the decrease in capacitance.

In the C stack, (four plate capacitor) the change in capacitance causes an internal redistribution charge, litterally adding surface area to the equation to cause an effect in capacitance.

In the Cross Field Capacitor, there is no addition to surface area, and the charge does not redistribute to new surface area, it is actually changing its dielectric constant.

See the difference?

One increases capacitance through addition of surface area (charges are then locked into place until shorted through coulomb forces)

One decreases capacitance through change in the dielectric constant.