SSG charged batteries cannot be used to drive SSG machines

[Guruji]

Bedini circuit

Hi guys for this I think John Bedini himself should reply to this if this is true or not that with negative charging could damage Gel batteries and even other types.
Thanks

[elias]

Thanks!

Actually after experimenting and building several Bedini Machines, I have become a skeptic of these Machines, they certainly do destroy Li-ion Batteries.

Do not charge these types of batteries with it, at first it will be good, but after some time they will be dead, especially if they are not of good quality.

Of course some strangeness happens to the batteries like Phantomness. It appears and disappears!! I don't know how to describe what happens sometimes.

But I have to say that I have been able to recover some Li-gel batteries with it, but not by itself, but by using a Cap parallel to it. When the battery impedance is high IT CANNOT absorb the spikes, so you need to put a Cap parallel with it.

I have not got any conclusions about these devices, because measuring batteries was not so easy, and voltages told you nothing. Maybe I was not patient enough to charge/discharge batteries 10 times. I still do not understand how is it that the Negatively charged batteries provide, Negative energy, but can load positive energy devices. Bearden tells you that Negative energy seeks high impedance, so why does it go into a low impedance battery? I don't like the positive/negative terminology, I prefer male/female, as Viktor Schauberger's theories imply, and it is more natural.

Anyway, I have migrated onto different type of stuff, such as Mullers work or Adams, and some other ideas of my own, after concluding that the Bedini effect is not something that can be of any serious applicable use, to free us from the energy dominance of oil. Nevertheless they charge the batteries with small current and cold.

I hate to say these things about the Bedini Energizer, because I have learned so much from Mr Bedini, and I love him. Nevertheless I didn't get much out of these devices. Or maybe I didn't believe him as I should have.

Nevertheless I also love his useful circuit.

Elias

[kcarring]

I still do not understand how is it that the Negatively charged batteries provide, Negative energy, but can load positive energy devices. ~Elias

I don't get that either. After (not enough) experimentation, I'm pretty skeptical the device offers any merit. If you want some free mechanical motion sure, and for that reason it is amazing, and quite efficient - however - if you're like me and your source of power is from solar, the last thing you need to do is mess with your battery bank to the point of it no longer being able to function with all forms of needed power. I see the value in lawn and garden lighting from low solar input, but that's all I can see, at this point. Will still play with and learn from it, indeed, and I think it's great he shared it with us, but I just don't "see it" -- what would it take, to make it work... really work, as in produce energy on a scale that was both large and versatile... I don't see it. I think the confusion does not come from Mr. Bedini, quite frankly I think it is "read in" by me, and others. I think we tend to want to make something more of this thing, in our minds, than it really is. If coupled with wind and solar, it isn't the "producer" - the solar and wind are. Money better spent elsewhere than building a $10,000 machine that saves you $50/mo. Imagine what that money would produce in free energy if just spent on more solar panels. Admittedly I could be TOTALLY wrong and welcome an explanation.. but that's how I see it, so far.

[mbrownn]

Hi guys for this I think John Bedini himself should reply to this if this is true or not that with negative charging could damage Gel batteries and even other types.
Thanks

I would love John's input but understand if he does not as he has told us many times about these devices

[mbrownn]

Can someone explain this "fix" on the SSG circuit?

The SSG works fine with no modification charging lead acid batteries. You can swap from front to back but in my experience the charge is just less than 100% efficient and eventually it will run out of power. These batteries can be put back into service on a motorcycle and function at least as good as new. No fix required.

I am playing with a small generator charging a capacitor on the input, I believe that the small amount of mechanical recovery will take me above 100% charge efficiency. It won’t be self running because we still have to switch the batteries round. Just proof of overunity concept.

Gel batteries I would not recommend on a Bedini energiser. Partial fix, If you do charge gel batteries then place a capacitor in parallel with the charging battery as this seems to delay the battery failure. Better still cap pulse. Mr Bedini, I would appreciate any feedback on this, maybe I’m doing something wrong.

On gel batteries that I broke open, I noticed the gel had dried in the contact area with the plate, some crystallisation too. Every gel battery I have charged on the SSG has eventually failed, the best performer was a new12Ah and it lasted 2 months. Maybe I am taking the voltage too high but they do say charge to 15+ volts on the side of them, so that is what I do. Lead acid I charge to 14.4v, Lead calcium I charge to 14.8v.

If I understand what John Bedini says. The SG with the trifilar coil had both positive and negative spikes, ie. The spike extends below the 0 position on the scope and it is this that will change your battery. If you put a cap in there the cap will convert the radiant, both positive and negative, to current. I am Paraphrasing now as I haven’t actually done this yet. If you charge a battery directly with this negative, the battery will show an overunity effect on resistive loads, but on the Bedini energisers “inductive loads” the extra capacity will not be there. This is all in the Energy from the Vacuum series.

[mbrownn]

@Kcarring

This is a little off topic but,

The Bedini circuit is Ideal for making use of solar, remember you get a near 1 to 1 charge rate, that’s much higher than you normally get. Plus you can still charge when the panel voltage is below battery voltage. Lead acid batteries also last longer when charged with positive radiant.

I think this is very useful, practical and not expensive for the extra power you will receive.

Yes you could say the extra power in an SSG is only the mechanical output, which is small (25 to 30%) for the size of the device, but you’re not getting the full picture there.

Let’s say direct charging with a solar panel is 80% efficient, so for every kw generated by the panel we get 800w in the battery. If we use an SSG we now get 90+%, a small improvement. Now if we put a generator on the shaft of the motor and feed that to the input side we can make the savings greater.

For every kw input we get 900+watts of charge plus 250+w of mechanical power. If this is fed to the input we have

1000 + 250 =1250

The charge output would be 90+% of that, say 1100w, so now we have gone from 800w of charge to 1100, an extra 300w. If the parts were well matched to each other I think 1200w is achievable even allowing for efficiency losses. Now add the fact that you can charge in low light conditions and you could be getting well above 50% more energy than you had before. A very practical device.

[kcarring]

@Kcarring

This is a little off topic but,

The Bedini circuit is Ideal for making use of solar, remember you get a near 1 to 1 charge rate, that’s much higher than you normally get. Plus you can still charge when the panel voltage is below battery voltage. Lead acid batteries also last longer when charged with positive radiant.

I think this is very useful, practical and not expensive for the extra power you will receive.

Yes you could say the extra power in an SSG is only the mechanical output, which is small (25 to 30%) for the size of the device, but you’re not getting the full picture there.

Let’s say direct charging with a solar panel is 80% efficient, so for every kw generated by the panel we get 800w in the battery. If we use an SSG we now get 90+%, a small improvement. Now if we put a generator on the shaft of the motor and feed that to the input side we can make the savings greater.

For every kw input we get 900+watts of charge plus 250+w of mechanical power. If this is fed to the input we have

1000 + 250 =1250

The charge output would be 90+% of that, say 1100w, so now we have gone from 800w of charge to 1100, an extra 300w. If the parts were well matched to each other I think 1200w is achievable even allowing for efficiency losses. Now add the fact that you can charge in low light conditions and you could be getting well above 50% more energy than you had before. A very practical device.

I'm open to explanations, thank-you. As i said, I haven't experimented enough to even say: I'm just trying to get the big picture. And if you could, please answer this. My current SSG draws about 80-100 milliamps. My panels, during peak sun hours put out a total of about 50 amps to charge 10 batteries of 100 amp hour capacity. To utilize that current and not waste any, currently, I'd need about 50 SSG circuits. Where does one start into that math, properly. Thanks

[kcarring]

PS> I do sincerely appreciate the help guys. I do think the circuit is really quite fascinating for sure. It's a bit difficult, and makes you scratch your head, when, in one hand you have a milliamp charger, and beside it is a 40a direct current pusher charge controller. Scaling, is confusing... when the sun shines, you got current: use it or lose it. Most of the time your at work so there's few options to use what can't be used: another problem in it's own right... but.. tonight I did make a few discoveries. On my SSG circuit I had too much wire, period. Long wires going everywhere of varying impedence, no doubt. On my solid state version, I had too much impedence in my base resistor. It looks simple, but there are fundamentals of any circuit I ignored and optimization of these circuits is obviously (now) paramount.

[Farmhand]

PS> I do sincerely appreciate the help guys. I do think the circuit is really quite fascinating for sure. It's a bit difficult, and makes you scratch your head, when, in one hand you have a milliamp charger, and beside it is a 40a direct current pusher charge controller. Scaling, is confusing... when the sun shines, you got current: use it or lose it. Most of the time your at work so there's few options to use what can't be used: another problem in it's own right... but.. tonight I did make a few discoveries. On my SSG circuit I had too much wire, period. Long wires going everywhere of varying impedence, no doubt. On my solid state version, I had too much impedence in my base resistor. It looks simple, but there are fundamentals of any circuit I ignored and optimization of these circuits is obviously (now) paramount.

Hi kcarring, The thing I notice is that with my small solar setup my panels can output 4.2 - 5.0 amps in full sun but when a battery is almost charged it's like the charging hits a wall and even though the availiable amps are there the amps through to the battery drop. If I connect a drained battery, the amps through to the battery go back to normal, which tells me when a battery is almost charged the impedance increases. It's probably an impedance relationship between the battery and the panels aswell a bit.

But any way, I find that if I run a radiant circuit and spike the battery or hit the battery with a capacitive discharger as it is being charged by the panels, when the battery is almost charged and restricting current from the panels, just the effect of the spike's or the cap dumping seem to shock the battery and more current flows and the battery charges much faster and the charge is very solid. Not fluffy. I have a recovered 100 Ah battery that I do that to, and it has a standing voltage of 13 volts or so it's going down because i've neglected it. I tend to work on one battery at a time. It's a thing for big batteries mainly, for faster charging.

For a bank I would say cap dumping into it from an SSG or a solid state Bedini or something rather than spike's, I recommend trifilar through a FWBR for cap dumping, But there is a catch, if your solar charge controller has PWM and does some pulsing which they all do I think, the pulsing from the Charge controller will interfere with the SSG maybe. I use a different battery.

It's very easy to setup realy but for a big bank you would want a lot of capacitance, which makes big crackles and sparks if shorted.

My tripple transistor Bedini solid state can charge 1470 uf to 200 or 300 volts in seconds from 500 Ma, it can use 780 Ma at full tilt. So it could charge quite a bit of capacitance to 30 volts a few times a second. I just took some pics of my tripple have you seen it ? It's faily simple to build and very usefull.

Cheers

[albertMunich]

Let me throw in my 2 cents here.---
I have been onto Bedini circuits since 2007 and I am not so sure about the negative energy thing. It might exist but I think there might be a less esoteric explanation for the fact that batt swapping usually is not too successful, at least if one uses the normal circuit without caps to buffer the spikes on the drive batts.
One simple explanation why one can't swap the batteries and run the machine for a longer time is the fact that you have the same spikes on the drive batteries as on the charge batts but this time its a pulsed DIScharge.
If you look at the scope the spikes appear on the input and on the output.

While the spikes are very beneficial to a battery being under charge they might be detrimental if the batt is discharged this way. The batteries have to deliver short strong pulses with a lot more amperage than might be good for them. In my setups batt swapping works two or three times and then the batteries seem to "lock up" in a strange way and run down quickly.
I have had spectacular results recovering sulphated batteries but could not yet get any battery bank to deliver more energy than was put into it.
The recovery effect alone is priceless. If all the poor USV batteries being charged to death could be switched to the radiant charging system it would really help prevent filling the landfills with all this lead.
I have used the same 12 V 7 ah gel cells for years in my experiments and so far only 2 of six have diminished output because I made them cold boil and the safety valves opened....the other 4 are still doing fine and yet they have been mistreated in every possible manner.Asking too much of them is usually a reason for failure, and of course they will all dry out in the end and become useless.
Acid filled batts seem to work best. I don't think the process works on Lithium batteries at all because they have totally different parameters and an internal protection to prevent fire hazards when overcharging them.
I think the really interesting effects of the Bedini process only appear if one switches to bigger machines with a lot more coils, uses a BIG battery bank and charge rates up to 10 amps and more. The smaller devices are more for studying the effects in my opinion. One can learn a lot with them.

[Farmhand]

Let me throw in my 2 cents here.---
I have been onto Bedini circuits since 2007 and I am not so sure about the negative energy thing. It might exist but I think there might be a less esoteric explanation for the fact that batt swapping usually is not too successful, at least if one uses the normal circuit without caps to buffer the spikes on the drive batts.
One simple explanation why one can't swap the batteries and run the machine for a longer time is the fact that you have the same spikes on the drive batteries as on the charge batts but this time its a pulsed DIScharge.
If you look at the scope the spikes appear on the input and on the output.

While the spikes are very beneficial to a battery being under charge they might be detrimental if the batt is discharged this way. The batteries have to deliver short strong pulses with a lot more amperage than might be good for them. In my setups batt swapping works two or three times and then the batteries seem to "lock up" in a strange way and run down quickly.
I have had spectacular results recovering sulphated batteries but could not yet get any battery bank to deliver more energy than was put into it.
The recovery effect alone is priceless. If all the poor USV batteries being charged to death could be switched to the radiant charging system it would really help prevent filling the landfills with all this lead.
I have used the same 12 V 7 ah gel cells for years in my experiments and so far only 2 of six have diminished output because I made them cold boil and the safety valves opened....the other 4 are still doing fine and yet they have been mistreated in every possible manner.Asking too much of them is usually a reason for failure, and of course they will all dry out in the end and become useless.
Acid filled batts seem to work best. I don't think the process works on Lithium batteries at all because they have totally different parameters and an internal protection to prevent fire hazards when overcharging them.
I think the really interesting effects of the Bedini process only appear if one switches to bigger machines with a lot more coils, uses a BIG battery bank and charge rates up to 10 amps and more. The smaller devices are more for studying the effects in my opinion. One can learn a lot with them.

Hi Albert, I beleive you are right, thats one of the reasons i'm reluctant to run an SSG or similar directly from a solar panel. If you scope the supply lines you see a broken trace of downward angled line dash's.

Best thing in my opinion is to use a big cap accross the supply even if it's a battery I think.

I don't understand why people swap the batteries from front to back. What is the point to that ? I use my batteries to power other loads, I 'can't see why people would want to charge a battery with another battery then take the charged battery and charge the drained battery that charged the charged battery this inevitably ends up in one battery being charged and one drained.
Or a stage inbetween. Charge time's and power used is my concern, also improving the battery.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

If your gell cell batteries dry out, just pop the top off them remove the vent caps and put some water in the battery then wait a day or three for the water to soak into the electrolyte medium then desulfate and use them. Works for me. When my gell cells dry out I turn them into wet cell's, you just can't use them upside down or on thier side anymore they must be upright. Sometime's I put Magnesium Sulfate (epsom salts) solution into the batteries.

There is kinda two ways to wet a gell cell, it can be filled to cover the plates or you can just dribble a little water into each cell over time, I replace the caps after dribbling some water in then put the cover plate on with a weight on top so the plugs don't fly off, then I sit the battery in the sun for a while to make the water inside evaporate and soak into the gell, this way takes longer but can restore the battery to be used upside down again because the added water gets soaked up. Just a little at a time is added.

The thing that holds a lot of people back is they wait to be told what they can do and what they can't do. A 7 Ah gell cell is not something to lose sleep over.

Cheers

[sucahyo]

If your gell cell batteries dry out, just pop the top off them remove the vent caps and put some water in the battery then wait a day or three for the water to soak into the electrolyte medium then desulfate and use them. Works for me.

I have bad result from adding water. The cell is working a bit good without the water, but after adding water I notice that some of the cell seems shorted or no longer connect.

While the water add the missing electrolyte, the cell of the battery must already in bad condition already. Corroded and weak.

Opening the case, adding water and charging seems to accelerate corrosion that already happening. So the battery become more unusable. Maybe using alum will work? Currently trying alum.

[Farmhand]

I have bad result from adding water. The cell is working a bit good without the water, but after adding water I notice that some of the cell seems shorted or no longer connect.

While the water add the missing electrolyte, the cell of the battery must already in bad condition already. Corroded and weak.

Opening the case, adding water and charging seems to accelerate corrosion that already happening. So the battery become more unusable. Maybe using alum will work? Currently trying alum.

Mine work fine Sucahyo, I have two 7 Ah gell cells I added water to that are powering my electric fence charged by a 5 watt solar panel and I added water to them when I put them on there about 6 months ago. My emergency bank 4 x 7 Ah gell cell also have water in them and I use them all the time.

Maybe the battery you tried was too far gone. I usually only try to fix gell cells that I know are just sulfated. Like always there are some that don't fix up at all and some not well but there are a lot that fix good too.

Oh yeah and I just fixed up an 18 Ah gell cell for the quad bike by adding some magnesium sulfate dissolved in water then desulfating it with a radiant circuit and discharging it a few times, and it was bad, it appeared charged but would not light a 12v 5 watt bulb the first few times I discharged it but now it starts the quad bike real good and light light while doing it.

Cheers

[mbrownn]

I'm open to explanations, thank-you. As i said, I haven't experimented enough to even say: I'm just trying to get the big picture. And if you could, please answer this. My current SSG draws about 80-100 milliamps. My panels, during peak sun hours put out a total of about 50 amps to charge 10 batteries of 100 amp hour capacity. To utilize that current and not waste any, currently, I'd need about 50 SSG circuits. Where does one start into that math, properly. Thanks

Hmmm I see your point.

The way to increase input and output is to lower the coil impedance; I have done this with fans to match them to my batteries. One fan I had was wound with coils of 80 ohm impedance so I rewound them with bigger wire to give 6 ohms. This increased the input based on ohms law and I still got the very high charge efficiency even though there were only 20 or so turns per pole on the motor.

The next problem would be duty cycle. If your coil was giving 50A pulses and the duty cycle was 10% you would be wasting 90% of your input. Lowering the impedance further would not work because your panels could not supply the required amps unless you placed a big capacitor on the input, increasing losses. You would need to have 10 x 50A coils, timed at 10% intervals; now your Bedini device is 10 times as big and expensive.

On a 12v 50A solar system you would need 10 x 0.24 ohm coils assuming negligible impedance on the output wires. I think 3” solder wire spools would be big enough. Each spool would be better if wound 7 filar, one trigger and six power wires, there combined resistance being 0.24 ohms or less so yes it is doable. That would be 60 x 2N055 transistors, 120 x 1N4007 diodes, 60 resisters and 10 pots. The hardest part would be choosing the correct spacing of the magnets and coils around the wheel to get the almost continuous duty cycle.

Go on, build it, you know you want to.