SSG charged batteries cannot be used to drive SSG machines

[sucahyo]

Maybe the battery you tried was too far gone. I usually only try to fix gell cells that I know are just sulfated. Like always there are some that don't fix up at all and some not well but there are a lot that fix good too.

Oh yeah and I just fixed up an 18 Ah gell cell for the quad bike by adding some magnesium sulfate dissolved in water then desulfating it with a radiant circuit and discharging it a few times, and it was bad, it appeared charged but would not light a 12v 5 watt bulb the first few times I discharged it but now it starts the quad bike real good and light light while doing it.

Ok, you are right. Nice results for the quad bike battery .

The next problem would be duty cycle. If your coil was giving 50A pulses and the duty cycle was 10% you would be wasting 90% of your input.

10 radiant circuit in parallel can hope to cover to 100% utilization.... I wonder how big a cap needed to stabilize that.....

[mbrownn]

Hi Albert, I beleive you are right, thats one of the reasons i'm reluctant to run an SSG or similar directly from a solar panel. If you scope the supply lines you see a broken trace of downward angled line dash's.

Best thing in my opinion is to use a big cap accross the supply even if it's a battery I think.

I don't understand why people swap the batteries from front to back. What is the point to that ? I use my batteries to power other loads, I 'can't see why people would want to charge a battery with another battery then take the charged battery and charge the drained battery that charged the charged battery this inevitably ends up in one battery being charged and one drained.
Or a stage inbetween. Charge time's and power used is my concern, also improving the battery.

Cheers

Yes this is all correct. You have to look at the duty cycle of your SSG. If you draw 10A and your duty cycle is 10% then each pulse is 100 amps and that will damage an individual battery. The same is true for the draw off a solar panel. If your panel is capable of a certain current, it cannot supply a peak that is above that without the voltage dropping off. Each pulse has to be within the limits of the power supply.

A 10Ah battery can give 100 amp pulses but its going to shock the plates and they will disintegrate in time and the battery will be destroyed. This is what the C20 charge/discharge rate is all about.

Paralleling a capacitor allows a high instantaneous pulse and if sized correctly will keep the draw within the limits of the power supply although you get additional losses.

[mbrownn]

Ok, you are right. Nice results for the quad bike battery .



10 radiant circuit in parallel can hope to cover to 100% utilization.... I wonder how big a cap needed to stabilize that.....

Yes ten radiant in parallel but firing sequentially so that the draw does not exceed the power supplied by the solar panel, that way there is no need for a capacitor.

If you choose the capacitor way I would size the capacitor as being 6 times the energy in the pulse as a minimum.

[sucahyo]

You have to look at the duty cycle of your SSG. If you draw 10A and your duty cycle is 10% then each pulse is 100 amps and that will damage an individual battery.

Isn't this for charging? and isn't 10 amp c100 for 10 battery with 100Ah capacity?

The same is true for the draw off a solar panel.

Do solar panel break if we use it under it's output?

Yes ten radiant in parallel but firing sequentially so that the draw does not exceed the power supplied by the solar panel, that way there is no need for a capacitor.

What happen if we exceed it?

If you choose the capacitor way I would size the capacitor as being 6 times the energy in the pulse as a minimum.

6 times of 50A?

[kcarring]

Thanks for all your help. It all makes me scratch my head and say...ok.. so you build this Bedini-like circuit to handle the full output of the panels... BUT... like already explained... it's probably going to deliver a better charge capacity than the 40 or (x2 so 80 in my case) amp charge controller...

I think, in the end it comes down to storage beyond batteries. For example, hydrogen, or if you want to keep it simpler that plastic from diesel idea. Some way to supply your bank with a charge, but then divert excess energy into a different means of storage via production of something with standing potential energy, a.k.a. fuel.

One reason alone would be cost. If you spend even just $1000 on a charger... that's the equivalent cost (my cost anyway) of five more panels that produce 5 amps during peak sun hours. That's 25 more amps... during every bright sun hour... for 20 years... The charger/controller has a role... but... it has to be "within reason".

I think on a system like mine (1300 watts) it's a small solar system. If my two 40a controllers handle it well, then perhaps a 10 amp Bedini style unit would do the same trick and excess energy, if any, needs to be somehow consumed for "potential", if you follow. I once brought up the topic of scale but I was completely ignored. Scale is very important and I have never seen a discussion of it. If money were no object - flywheel seems a natural fit to this form of energy -- but -- that is more likely on a corporate or national level. It is rather unrealistic to imagine 150 million people each having a massive camp battery system and dozens of coils, hundreds of transistors cooking away... thats billions of batteries alone LOL MY original concept was HHO until I went full circle and realized it's limitations. I still think a person could "change" HHO though, chemically. But that's a whole other topic. For sake of continuity I won't ask anymore questions and allow this thread to return to it's original theme and topic. Perhaps we can take this up in the solar bedini thread. There are so many possibilities, we haven't even incorporated tesla switching like John has. If people work together we should, in theory one should be able to make a 1500 watt solar system act like a 3000-4000 watt system, and that in itself, would be truly amazing if you ask me.

[Farmhand]

kcarring, US patent 6677730 . Device and method for pulse charging a battery and for driving other devices with a pulse .

I'm going to build two slightly different, so that they work together in tandem in an alternating fashion. It can drive a transformer like an inverter does. Drive a motor, and do other stuff. I will use a different type of logic chip a CD4047. I fully understand the drawing and what it does. I think I can do it better. But that is an assumption, because I always say, if somebody else can do something so can I, and if I try hard enough I can do it better or different.

We can discuss this in the Solar Charging pulsing thread if you want.

Cheers.

[albertMunich]

Now while we are talking to people here who experiment with solar panels and the Bedini; BIG Question!
A normal solar charger- or charge regulator- will turn off when the voltage coming off the solar panel drops below the battery voltage. This means that in cloudy or overcast or morning or evening situations the panels will not do anything to the batteries.
With a Bedini and its high voltage charging process the thing should work a lot longer because the voltage going into the batts is always higher than the panel voltage.
My simple Bedini SSG in solid state will work down to 2 volts and less. So this alone should increase the efficiency of the entire solar array a lot.
Am I right with this assumption? Does anyone have reliable data on this compared to ordinary solar controllers?

BTW On the idea of putting water back into gel cells: I tried this with a huge military battery that was given to me. There one could open the plugs and add water without much of a hassle. The battery first ran better and then went down to the state it had before...might have been a shorted cell anyway. Perhaps its possible to revive gel batts this way. But as you said a 7 ah battery is not worth going to great lengths anyway...and it would lose the advantage of being sealed.

[Farmhand]

Hi albert, That is true a Bedini oscillator can charge a 12 volt battery from less than 12 volts, Sucayho's Stingo circuit can do it too with a fraction of the wire. But you already have a Bedini. I haven't actually done much testing in that area yet. I imagine a SS oscillator can also fill a cap to over 100 volts with 6 volts or less.

The problem is that when the panel output voltage drops so does the availiable current, the oscillator likes almost instantanious current so a cap across the input of the oscillator should help to provide the rapid current draw.

I don't think a solar panel could be damaged by an oscillator wanting more current than the panel can produce, they are rated to 1000v DC, mine are anyway. The rapid current flow just wouldn't be there for the part of the cycle the draw happens, without a cap the panel does nothing while it waits, with the cap the panel can replace what is drawn in 20% of the cycle during the other 80% of the time. Capacitors are our friends.

It doesn't make any sense to me to run an oscillator straight from solar panels without a capacitor, I don't do it, I either use a capacitor or a battery. Charge the battery from the panel and run the oscillator from the battery. Or if you use a capacitor the voltage will rise and fall with the sun untill it stops, as long as the oscillator can take the full voltage of the panels thats no problem.

Cheers

[Guruji]

Gel batteries

Hi Farmhand interesting what you've said about adding water to gel batts. How can you know that the gel battery have become dry? cause mine seems that are sealed. I have two gel batteries 200amp each. These were second hands used for big computers.
These worked fine but last couple of months are not holding alot of amps
Any clue?
Thanks

[Farmhand]

Hi Farmhand interesting what you've said about adding water to gel batts. How can you know that the gel battery have become dry? cause mine seems that are sealed. I have two gel batteries 200amp each. These were second hands used for big computers.
These worked fine but last couple of months are not holding alot of amps
Any clue?
Thanks

Hi Guruji, I've only ever tried with small gel cells like 7 Ah or 18 Ah, but I am trying a 50 Ah AGM battery now. It doesn't seem to be going so well yet but it is very heavy must be a lot of lead in it. It's a blue top Optima battery with coil wrapped plates. I only do it if desulfating the battery with a radiant circuit doesn't work. I don't know how to tell if it's dry other than looking in the hole or by the behavior of the battery.

I've looked at some big gell cells there seems to be a few ways they seal them up. It would be hard to say without seeing it.

The small gell cells require the lifting of a cover plate, which I do by inserting a very small screwdriver straight down then tilt it back and slide it around to pop the top off, some older ones have an individual top for each vent. With the small one's I prefer to add a measured amount to each cell with a syringe. The hole is too small to pour into. Then I replace the plugs and shake it around a bit and sit it somewhere warm to mist up inside, time for the electolyte medium to soak up the water. Then when I desufate it I take the caps back off so I don't loose them, the gassing off during desulfating causes them to fly away. I prefer to only add a little bit of water a few millls if the battery is not too bad or not too old. If I fill them up it's only to just cover the plates, if you filled it right up it might short all the cells together if the cell cavities are joined at the top.

The big one in the pic below only had two vents so I got them out and put in some water then replace the plugs and turn it upside down where the cavities must be joined, to even out the water into all the cells then flipped it right way up again, not sure if this one will work it may be damaged, it could take a while too because of the amount of plate surface and how tightly it's wrapped in there, the tight wrapping may slowdown the moistening of the medium. I haven't tried an AGM yet either it may not work like a gell cell.

The small one in the picture is an old one from the "really is junk" pile it's been sitting in the weather a while now, pay no attention to it's appearance.

Cheers

[Farmhand]

Guruji, could you possibly post a picture of the top of one of your batteries or maybe you can find a pic on the net of the same type of battery.

It's good to be back on batteries I felt terrible derailing this thread like that.

Like sucahyo said sometimes they make a short recovery then fail, but if the battery is working already but declining adding a few milliliters of water can't hurt. If the batteries are still working you could just add a few mills of water and seal them back up. If they were drying out you should notice a difference in a few days.

[Farmhand]

Do they look like this - UPG4D Gel Cell 40701

The small one's have a flat plate that sit's inserted flush with the top, there is just a very small split around the cover plate that holts the vent caps down tight so there is pressure inside the battery to keep the moisture in.

You should be able to see where the cover plate is a separate piece from the battery, the small one's even have a small space for inserting the screwdriver to lever the top off. I destroyed the top of the first one I tried.

[mbrownn]

Isn't this for charging? and isn't 10 amp c100 for 10 battery with 100Ah capacity?

Do solar panel break if we use it under it's output?

What happen if we exceed it?

6 times of 50A?

The 10A was just an analogy, I wasn’t talking about any specific battery.

Solar panels are not damaged by under using them and are very tolerant of over loading. The effect of overloading is voltage drop therefore self limiting the power.

You work out the power required for the pulse and then choose a capacitor that will hold six times that. This is so most of the energy will be drawn from the capacitor before its voltage drops too far below the power supply. If the capacitor was too small its voltage would drop rapidly then the load would put most of the demand on the power supply.

[mbrownn]

Thanks for all your help. It all makes me scratch my head and say...ok.. so you build this Bedini-like circuit to handle the full output of the panels... BUT... like already explained... it's probably going to deliver a better charge capacity than the 40 or (x2 so 80 in my case) amp charge controller...

I think, in the end it comes down to storage beyond batteries. For example, hydrogen, or if you want to keep it simpler that plastic from diesel idea. Some way to supply your bank with a charge, but then divert excess energy into a different means of storage via production of something with standing potential energy, a.k.a. fuel.

One reason alone would be cost. If you spend even just $1000 on a charger... that's the equivalent cost (my cost anyway) of five more panels that produce 5 amps during peak sun hours. That's 25 more amps... during every bright sun hour... for 20 years... The charger/controller has a role... but... it has to be "within reason".

I think on a system like mine (1300 watts) it's a small solar system. If my two 40a controllers handle it well, then perhaps a 10 amp Bedini style unit would do the same trick and excess energy, if any, needs to be somehow consumed for "potential", if you follow. I once brought up the topic of scale but I was completely ignored. Scale is very important and I have never seen a discussion of it. If money were no object - flywheel seems a natural fit to this form of energy -- but -- that is more likely on a corporate or national level. It is rather unrealistic to imagine 150 million people each having a massive camp battery system and dozens of coils, hundreds of transistors cooking away... thats billions of batteries alone LOL MY original concept was HHO until I went full circle and realized it's limitations. I still think a person could "change" HHO though, chemically. But that's a whole other topic. For sake of continuity I won't ask anymore questions and allow this thread to return to it's original theme and topic. Perhaps we can take this up in the solar bedini thread. There are so many possibilities, we haven't even incorporated tesla switching like John has. If people work together we should, in theory one should be able to make a 1500 watt solar system act like a 3000-4000 watt system, and that in itself, would be truly amazing if you ask me.

You are correct

This is why most people cannot achieve their objective when building a device. It’s all about scale. The device must be matched to its desired load and losses. In most equipment we use today the losses are greater than the load.

A car might be 100hp at the engine but we had to put close to 300hp of fuel in it to get that and they never count that. Then we have losses in the gear box, friction, rolling resistance, drag, inertia etc. Typically there is less than 50% of the power of the engine moving you forward.

So what is a typical overall COP on a 100hp car? O.17

So what is a typical overall COP on a nuclear power station? O.37

So what is a typical overall COP on a coal power station? O.27

An electric car can be 80% efficient but if we charge it with power from a power station it isn’t much better than a car. The false greenies don’t tell you that.

[mbrownn]

Exactly

It doesn't make any sense to me to run an oscillator straight from solar panels without a capacitor, I don't do it, I either use a capacitor or a battery. Charge the battery from the panel and run the oscillator from the battery. Or if you use a capacitor the voltage will rise and fall with the sun untill it stops, as long as the oscillator can take the full voltage of the panels thats no problem.

Cheers

I agree, most loads are not matched to the power supply so a capacitor makes good sense for most applications.