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**conradphd** · 02-28-2011, 01:13 AM

Originally posted by Muon View Post

Heads up!

I've been watching the OUResearch forum and an "interesting" development occurred last week when PhysicsProf announced that with a simple JT circuit, nothing fancy really, he had obtained a COP of 1.3, that is, 130%. Over there, they refer to it as "n".

PhysicsProf challenged .99 to try the same circuit, using a ferrite core in a toroid, and guess what -- .99 with his very similar circuit found n = 112%.

.99 wrote about an hour ago:

He gives the schematic there -- replications, anyone? I'm doing it!

Follow the main thread on this (there are two, one for air core which is not as high and one for the ferrite core), here:

LTJT - poynt99 Tests #2

I think there is still some confusion about whether to SUBTRACT or to add the power dissipated in the 1 ohm "measuring resistor". I think physicsprof is right (subtract), but even if one should add as .99 is NOW saying, n = 99.5% ...

Check it out!

I admit I have not read from the start, yet in any measurement of there 'n' you need to define your measurement parms. Your percentage of error, your accuracy and resolution. I would think from looking at their numbers they are still below 100. I must say they are applying effort which is much needed in all projects.

Conrad.

**Muon** · 02-28-2011, 02:10 AM

Originally posted by conradphd View Post

I admit I have not read from the start, yet in any measurement of there 'n' you need to define your measurement parms. Your percentage of error, your accuracy and resolution. I would think from looking at their numbers they are still below 100. I must say they are applying effort which is much needed in all projects.

Conrad.

Well, PhysicsProf (a physics professor emeritus) is saying about 130, while saying they need to re-check measurement methods etc.
And you're right -- they need to think about percentage error, etc.

And I agree with you " they are applying effort which is much needed in all projects."

**Muon** · 03-01-2011, 04:27 PM

Latest post by PhysicsProf, and see attached circuit schematic:

.99:

Indeed I can use a 1 Ohm in the emitter to see what power our transistor is dissipating. I'll try this when I get to testing the circuit again, today or tomorrow.

Good. Call it CSR3. I have added this to my circuit and checked it briefly using my DSO at home. The power dissipated in this emitter 1-ohm resistor CSR3 is not negligible and should be included -- increasing n a small amount. My circuit now appears identical to your schematic, except I've added CSR3.

.99 Pitotal and Pcsr1 must be added together to obtain Pvbat.

I do not concede this point -- still awaiting data on what happens to Pin, Pout and n (COP) when a 1/2 ohm CSR1 is used instead of a 1 ohm resistor. I prefer data to theoretical discussions and I'm guided by the data.
In any case, as I've noted, as long as CSR1 is small (like 1/2 ohm), it matters little to the COP whether one adds or subtracts Pcsr1.

I have also observed an interesting change in the power waveform (across CSR1) when the voltage from my power supply (rather than battery) is decreased, down from 1.5V to about 0.6 V when the LED goes out. At about 1.1 volt (in my circuit, may vary with details of the toroid etc), the power curve goes from entirely positive to sometimes positive and sometimes negative. That is, the curve crosses the zero line and the waveform becomes more erratic (many more wiggles) as the voltage is decreased to about 1 volt. Clearly, the phase relationship between current and voltage changes, reverses, which I find interesting and perhaps significant.

It would be nice to have two oscilloscopes with math and also mean calculation on the math product (power)... Perhaps someday.

Anyone else interested in replicating this circuit? I've got mine done, looking at it with my DSO now.

Attached Files

JTschem1Mar11.jpg (22.5 KB, 118 views)

**kcarring** · 03-01-2011, 11:04 PM

Originally posted by Muon View Post

Latest post by PhysicsProf, and see attached circuit schematic:

Anyone else interested in replicating this circuit? I've got mine done, looking at it with my DSO now.

Can you repost another version, that pic is so tiny it can't be read. Thanks

I still scratch my head everytime I walk around with my very small torroid JT flashlight. It illuminates 2 LED's quite well, on 1.5v 20 mA. Go figure.

**Joit** · 03-01-2011, 11:54 PM

This should be better, saved into jpg.
Copyrights hopefully included.

Attached Files

LTJT2_schema01(2)jpg.jpg (154.9 KB, 120 views)

**mikrovolt** · 03-02-2011, 03:26 AM

In order for someone to duplicate the circuit difinitively
more information is needed.

The ferrite toroid size, material and permability.
The copper wire size and number of turns, if possible the inductances.
what is the csr1, csr2 and the led.

I would like to see an OU tpu like Jean Szili working as I have read all I could find on it.
I don't think szili used regular simulation software.
The correct toroid is important I remember reading.

The szili OU TPU

**Muon** · 03-02-2011, 05:21 AM

Thanks Joit for posting a good copy of the schematic.

Originally posted by mikrovolt View Post

In order for someone to duplicate the circuit difinitively
more information is needed.

The ferrite toroid size, material and permability.
The copper wire size and number of turns, if possible the inductances.
what is the csr1, csr2 and the led.

I would like to see an OU tpu like Jean Szili working as I have read all I could find on it.
I don't think szili used regular simulation software.
The correct toroid is important I remember reading.

The szili OU TPU

CSR1 and CSR2 are "current-sensing resistors" and are 1.0 ohms each; used to measure the current at that point in the circuit.
For my tests, I had a yellow ferritic-core toroid that measures about 1 1/8" diameter. I wound 13 windings of 22 gauge copper wir e, bifilar, using enamel-coated for one wire and plastic-insulated for the other. (That is, 13 windings of each, would together.) I'd like to measure the inductance... a friend has such a device, will see what I can do.
Trying to find out more about the inductances, toroids used at the other thread, etc. Good questions.

**kcarring** · 03-03-2011, 09:23 AM

Originally posted by Muon View Post

Trying to find out more about the inductances, toroids used at the other thread, etc. Good questions.

Thanks for the info. I agree for replication and testing your best bet would be specifics. An available toroid product from mouser or somewhere so everyone is on the same page. I have three different JT's all ferrite torroids of varying size and number of winds. I find they all give different output characteristics, and vary widely, but all work. There certainly is no magic number of winds as to make it work, many different combinations clearly get the job done. Recently I stumbled across a ferrite "ring" i shall call it. Instead of your typical "fat" torroid this ring is very thin, allowing for a lot of winds, and i shall try it, but thus far I have found best success with "bigger is better" to an extent. I compare using the same LED's seeing how many I can illuminate in series and parrallel and compare inputs, all the while using the same circuit, only changing the torroid.

**Muon** · 03-03-2011, 08:22 PM

Who would have thought the basic Joule Thief would itself be overunity?
PhysicsProf has posted his latest results at the OUResearch forum, thread here:
LTJT - poynt99 Tests #2

PhysicsProf's J1 toroid was based on a 1"-diameter yellow ferrite-core toroid from Jameco, wound bifilar and he says that each winding shows

L = 24 uH.

This has given the best results to date. He also tried a transformer from a Fuji AA throw-away camera.
Well, read for yourself -- quoting from today:

PhysicsProf
Quote from: poynt99 on Today at 20:12:32
lanenal,

I tried your method in PSpice, and it comes very close to the actual summed power in the transistor and LED, but it is lower by about 1.5%. I can not account for that loss at the moment, but it would be handy to have only the one CSR in the circuit.

One other potential problem in combining all the output powers, is we are less likely able to identify where or which device is causing our efficiency to be so high.

At any rate, I'll leave it up to you and the professor to decide which method you want to use.

.99

Great idea, Lanenal -- elegant. Thanks for checking this, .99.
I have done some tests now with Lanenal's method and I love the simplicity of it. The channel 2 probe stays put on CSR1, as do probe-ground leads. It is quick to move the channel 1 probe between the 2 points, for input and output.

So, I have done tests using my "best" toroid, one which I wound myself and call J1. It has looked the best using .99's circuit. I also extracted the small transformer from a Fuji AA flash throw0awat camera and wired that into the circuit for another test.

I'm using my ATTEN 1062 DSO, which has a MATH function and shows the Power waveform in green Using L's method, I plot the Pin and Pout and then I can straightforwardly compare the AREA under the waveform for one cycle, which gives me

Eout/Ein = Pout/Pin (since for the same time period, one cycle) = n.

Using L's method, I don't have to subtract or add P-csr1, which is great, I can simply calculate the areas under the Power curves (as a function of time, so this yields Energy) for In and Output, and Divide Eout/Ein to get n.
I have done this for toroid J1 and the Fuji transformer. The results --

Toroid J1: n = 1.4
Fuji transformer: n = 1.08

CAVEAT: Both results are approximate, given that I have done the area calculations by hand. I may put the CSV data from the DSO into Excel and see if I can refine the calculation; or go up to the University and use the Tek 3032 which calculates the Math Mean directly (giving Pmean with hardly any work) -- applied to the same circuit.

I will post photos of the set-ups soon... I haven't been able to extract the waveforms in a screen-shot; wish i could to show you directly. For J1, the area under Pout appears larger than the area under Pin, by eye. (Have I done something wrong, or is this something to cheer about? not real sure yet.)

The circuit is rather easy to put together on a circuit-board, and I encourage others to participate and check my and .99's results.

The circuit has been simplified based on a suggestion by lanenal, which was warmly received by PhysicsProf. See the thread for details.

**Muon** · 03-03-2011, 08:52 PM

Who would have thought the basic Joule Thief would itself be overunity?
PhysicsProf has posted his latest results at the OUResearch forum, thread here:
LTJT - poynt99 Tests #2

PhysicsProf's J1 toroid was based on a 1"-diameter yellow ferrite-core toroid from Jameco, wound bifilar and he says that each winding shows

L = 24 uH.

This has given the best results to date. He also tried a transformer from a Fuji AA throw-away camera.
Another researcher .99 also measured inductances, but he writes:

Note that I physically cut the core I had, in order to decrease the core permeability and increase the frequency of operation. I made the inductance measurements BEFORE I cut it which of course changes all the parameters.

.99 has not updated his L values that I can see since he cut the ferrite core...

Well, read for yourself -- quoting from today:

PhysicsProf
Quote from: poynt99 on Today at 20:12:32
lanenal,

I tried your method in PSpice, and it comes very close to the actual summed power in the transistor and LED, but it is lower by about 1.5%. I can not account for that loss at the moment, but it would be handy to have only the one CSR in the circuit.

One other potential problem in combining all the output powers, is we are less likely able to identify where or which device is causing our efficiency to be so high.

At any rate, I'll leave it up to you and the professor to decide which method you want to use.

.99

Great idea, Lanenal -- elegant. Thanks for checking this, .99.
I have done some tests now with Lanenal's method and I love the simplicity of it. The channel 2 probe stays put on CSR1, as do probe-ground leads. It is quick to move the channel 1 probe between the 2 points, for input and output.

So, I have done tests using my "best" toroid, one which I wound myself and call J1. It has looked the best using .99's circuit. I also extracted the small transformer from a Fuji AA flash throw0awat camera and wired that into the circuit for another test.

I'm using my ATTEN 1062 DSO, which has a MATH function and shows the Power waveform in green Using L's method, I plot the Pin and Pout and then I can straightforwardly compare the AREA under the waveform for one cycle, which gives me

Eout/Ein = Pout/Pin (since for the same time period, one cycle) = n.

Using L's method, I don't have to subtract or add P-csr1, which is great, I can simply calculate the areas under the Power curves (as a function of time, so this yields Energy) for In and Output, and Divide Eout/Ein to get n.
I have done this for toroid J1 and the Fuji transformer. The results --

Toroid J1: n = 1.4
Fuji transformer: n = 1.08

CAVEAT: Both results are approximate, given that I have done the area calculations by hand. I may put the CSV data from the DSO into Excel and see if I can refine the calculation; or go up to the University and use the Tek 3032 which calculates the Math Mean directly (giving Pmean with hardly any work) -- applied to the same circuit.

I will post photos of the set-ups soon... I haven't been able to extract the waveforms in a screen-shot; wish i could to show you directly. For J1, the area under Pout appears larger than the area under Pin, by eye. (Have I done something wrong, or is this something to cheer about? not real sure yet.)

The circuit is rather easy to put together on a circuit-board, and I encourage others to participate and check my and .99's results.

The circuit has been simplified based on a suggestion by lanenal, which was warmly received by PhysicsProf. See the thread for details.

**mikrovolt** · 03-04-2011, 02:54 AM

I wound a small toroid having a mu of 6500.
I put a magnet on it and the secondary inductance went from 100uH to 47uH.
So I doubled the winding to get back to 100uH.

If you did'nt know the permability then using the equation for toroids you could find it

I understand the current in the primary can be almost captured back
if a non polorized capacitor is inserted acrossed a momentary switch on the input.
I know whatever potential is stored in the primary must be reproduced in the secondary.
with the help of the little magnet I get more from the extra windings.
if the mu was only 300 and I doubled it that would be 300 mu more
but if the permability was 10,000 then the increase is much more.

**ltseung888** · 03-04-2011, 01:29 PM

Waiting for the resonance testing from PhysicsProf

PhysicsProf and team at overunityresearch.com are doing a great job in the basic Joule Thief research. They also experimented with the Fuji circuit Joule Ringer with encouraging results.

Sooner or later, they will work on and hit the resonance or pseudo resonance conditions. Those results will then be really interesting.

**Muon** · 03-06-2011, 12:02 AM

Further results from PhysicsProf posted this afternoon at OUR. Salient points quoted below -- please go to the link to see his Tektronix 3032-scope shots.

LTJT - poynt99 Tests #2

Without further ado, let me share with you -- inviting comment -- the most interesting result of yesterday's (4 March 2011) tests at the University, using a Tektronix 3032 scope.

Here I am using the eJ toroid that I wound. I began with a Jameco toroidal inductor (100 uH, Jameco part # 386601), and wound fifteen windings bifilar of 22-gauge insulated (one with plastic, the other enamael) copper wire. The inductance of EACH of my windings came out to 24 uH. The Jameco winding is not involved in this test run, and the wires are left unconnected from this winding (which would be the secondary winding for a Tseung-type system).

I have given results with this SAME eJ toroid above... where we observed Pin as a simple sawtooth and Pout a single hump or spike. Now -- please look closely at the waveforms for this run at 0.996 V (in from the power supply), in the attached.

First, we look at the detail for roughly 1.5 cycles in the first attached screen-shot. The red Pin waveform is approximately what we have seen before, a saw-tooth pattern. But the (red) Pout waveform is quite different!
Instead of a single hump or spike essentially bounded at zero-power as we have seen in the past, we now see a U-shape that significantly OVERSHOOTS ZERO, demonstrating current and voltage Out of Phase, as we also see comparing the voltage across the (LED+transistor) in yellow, and the current in the 1-ohm CSR shown in blue.

Further, notice the oscillations/wiggles in the waveforms for the output power and voltage waveforms. Very interesting. To me, this is striking and rarely-seen behavior, and I have been working with these types of circuits for months now.

To get the efficiency with some accuracy, we have the Tektronix 3032 calculate Mean Power for both Pin and Pout over about 17 cycles -- with this interesting result:

n = 44.8 / 39.8 = 1.13 = 113%

+- about 3% as previously noted.

[snip]
Now the question is -- what does this all mean? and how can one get back to this out-of-phase relationship between V and I in the output circuit?? ...

To me the result is striking and noteworthy and something of a breakthrough. But can it be repeated? Repeatability is a core requirement for solid science and progress.

**morpher44** · 04-07-2011, 05:08 AM

the model

maybe this is a dumb question ...
"but is there any accounting for the energy that might go back
into the battery due to back EMF?"
There is a chemical-current flow inside the battery that probably
needs to be in the model -- and this is highly dependent on
battery chemistry, etc.

Announcement

Ah! possible breakthrough with the JouleThief circuit and overunity...

Ah! possible breakthrough with the JouleThief circuit and overunity...

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