Permanent Magnets

[phoneboy]

Hi, don't post here much but had and idea and would like a little input as I think there are people here with a lot more experience with magnetics. I attached an image of the basics of my idea the ultimate question is: based on the picture will the piston move to the right?idea.jpg

[Dean2]

Comments

Hi Phoneboy, Perhaps if you give us a bit more insight to your thinking? Why do you think the “piston” would move to the right?

I believe your flux path would be just opposite of your arrows, although it shouldn’t make any difference, they would still be opposite one another. How significant is your “gap” between magnet polarity points and the frame? What is going to set the piston into movement?

If it was to move, why would it move back, are your forces not equal? Would there not be an extreme attraction at all polarity points to the high permeability material? In other words, locked in place.
[ATTACH]:thinking: [/ATTACH]

[bobo36us]

Similar Effect

There is a similar effect going on here:
YouTube - gilbondfac's Channel

I have actually duplicated this, it does work, and is much less complicated.

How to make oval and close the loop? Easy!

Stopping force at end of track = 1) Magnetic attraction

Forces to overcome above sticky point = 1) Velocity (kinetic energy)
2) Weight of the rotating magnet (gravity)
3) Redesigned track & magnetic shielding

3 forces are greater than 1!

I have actually watched a 12oz magnet roll uphill ! (Amazing)

Now imagine that magnet coming down hill with the same magnetic acceleration + the weight of the magnet +
the magnet rolling through a "gate" at the sticking point, + a more gradual curve.


Bobo

[phoneboy]

@ Dean2 the thinking is that if magnets are attracted to each other through air once their flux couples why wouldn't they attract if their flux coupled through another media, especially if the media concentrates the flux? The gap between the outer magnets and the channel is small 1mm or less.

[Dean2]

Hi PhoneBoy, Before we consider those other aspects, from your diagram - the forces appear equal on the left and right. What force is going to cause movement? The balance, or symmetry equals "zero" in force. Please explain.

[phoneboy]

In the diagram the center magnet is fixed, since the piston can move wouldn't the left magnet be attracted to the center magnet, the right magnet's flux would complete through the channel and effectively do nothing.

[Dean2]

symmetry

Hi Phoneboy,

If you build this, I think what you will discover is, your two moving PMs are going to center themselves between the fixed one and the outer frames. Even though you will have a flow of flux through the high permeability material, you still have "balance" of forces. Also, if you notice the flux pattern, most of the energy is going to become confined internally - like a toroid, hence the force between "exposed" poles is going to be smaller as well. I don't mind being wrong, just build it and discover.

[Dean2]

...a thought for today.

"Every charge in the Universe already freely and continuously pours out EM energy, in three dimensional space in all directions, without any observable EM energy input." This seems to be "known", but "ignored". The energy, the source is already there! Perhaps, if we simply accept that, we can learn how to harness it. Video demo and theory here: Green Energy 211

[Dean2]

gotta have it...

MAGNETICS is the key. The magnetic field and electric field are inseparable. I would go so far as to say they are virtually the same entity, yet they do coexist. It's another dichotomy that stretches the limitations of the human mind. Duality of energetic matter allows formations to simultaneously occupy two different realms.

Two mutually exclusive characteristics. Using Special Relativity, the electric and magnetic fields are two aspects of the same thing. A changing magnetic field is mathematically the same as a moving magnetic field. So part of it is manifested as an electric field component. It's apparent this multiple existence is not limited to two only fields of energy, but many fields simultaneously. Video & Demo at:
Green Energy 211

[clueless]

concerning magnetic and electricial fields

Dean2 do you know if a moving magnetic field can be induced virtually? I was wondering if using electricity you can effectively make a magnetic moving field. It seems to me if you could it would it make any motor/generator produce more power with less input.
My thought was instead of a rotor physcially moving can you get the same effect by moving electricity around a magnet. I guess instead of the rotor inside of the magnet it surrounds the magnet and is moved virtually.

[Dean2]

electro magnetic energy...

Hi Clueless, A magnetic field is NOT really virtual, it exists. I don’t believe you can “almost, practically, or nearly” have a magnetic field. Also, the magnetic field and the electric field are inseparable – you don’t have one without the other. In addition, a magnetic field IS always moving. That said, I’m not sure what your question is? Perhaps if you re-think it, and ask again, I'll give it another shot.

Have you read the "thread" and the original material presented? Green Energy 211

[clueless]

Sorry for the lack of clarity

but what I was wondering is: From what I read a lot of energy is lost as heat in a motor/generator. I was just wondering if instead of a physcially rotating rotor you could induce the same effect from electronic switching.
I've been fascinated by magnets. Here is a question that maybe you know. If you take a bar magnet of any length with a N and S end and you cut it in unequal lengths why don't you end up with one magnet with 2 different poles and one with same poles. Or do you? I've never tried it.
But assuming you end with 2 magnets each with a N and S pole then it would seem whatever the forces are they do not origionate inside the magnet.
I done a little experiment with magnets and found that while they attract with a straight line force they repulse from curved force lines. They seem to repulse with a force to the right. Probably simple stuff to most people here but it has got me to wondering.
From the way I've seen magnetic lines protrayed they always curve but it seems that in attraction those lines are somehow straightened out. At that was the impression I got from playing with the magnets.
Thanks again for the reply.
-RG

[clueless]

Curiosity killed the cat but...this thought just struck

what would happen if in a motor/generator you replaced the stator with a magnet with like poles facing each other. They would repel and move to the right. Right?
Picture this take a round flat magnet say 6" in diameter and using a hole saw like tool cut out the core twice. That would give you two magnet rings with the inside having a hole like a doughnut in it. Inside that hole place a coil. If the outside ring was stationary the inside ring should turn around the coil. Would that not produce electricity?
Sorry about the extra post but usually one train of thought leads to another and I have ideas whirling.

[Dean2]

Hi RG, It will not matter how many times you cut it. There is NO energy in a permanent magnet. Think of the material as a “conduit” or portal that sets up a condition to allow the electromagnetic energy that is ever present within the vaccum, present everywhere in space to “flow” through. The polarities are entrance and exit points of the flux – and they always seek out one another – completing the loop – on to infinity.

Second question: No, it would not produce electricity. Your enthusiasm, ideas, and curiosity are good things. However, you might consider some basic magnetic studies, which would allow you a better fundamental idea of what is being discussed in this advanced thread. In addition, some hands on experience in testing your ideas will also give you first-hand insight into the marvels and unique behavior of PMs.

[broli]

Hey Dean2, what happened to your research? You were doing some good progress .