Coulld "water" help Japanese nuclear meltdown?

[mbrownn]

Proof of disinformation

Proof of disinformation

Look at this image of reactor 1, the second image down.

Situation at Fukushima nuclear power station | MrReid.org

You can see what looks like the secondary containment vessel from an AGR in the middle of the framework but when you look at the plan of the building, the reactor secondary containment is actually lower down. I have worked on an AGR, I know what they look like.

New Explosion Destroys Second Fukushima Nuclear Reactor Building - Christopher Helman - Fuel - Forbes

Now look at a view of the reactor from above, notice no evidence of the reactor vessel. The first image on the first link

The truth is hidden in plane site. The second image is obviously a faked and photo shopped.

Now look at reactor 3 on the left of this picture. You will see a domed vessel, this is the primary containment vessel, notice it is tilted and steam is evident at the back. It is breached and in meltdown.

Japan nuclear crisis: Workers resume effort at Fukushima power plant as radiation levels drop

As you may have heard, the biggest problem is not the reactors, even though they are much bigger than Chernobyl, it’s the used fuel rods that are stored in a containment tank at the same level as the top of the reactor. There is up to 8 reactor cores worth of fuel rods stored in these. This storage vessel can be seen in the second image and it appears empty, I believe it was this that exploded on the first reactor. It is the dark rectangular shape on the right side of the reactor building when viewed from above.

On reactor 3, the storage vessel is gone as is the secondary containment vessel.

I understand that the reactors at Fukushima are 4.6 times bigger than Chernobyl. The news tells us that three reactors are breached and the pictures show us that three reactor buildings have exploded; a fourth has a fire that I assume is in the storage vessel.

Potentially how big is this disaster at this point?

Used cores = 8+8+8+8 = 32
Active cores = 3

Total = 35 x 4.6 = 161 times Chernobyl.

[bolt1]

There may not even be 50 people on site. For all we know they packed up and left days ago and its all just a simmering mess. OR if they are still there i give them another 24/48 hours before the radiation is off the scale and they have to RUN out of the area. The very SAME thing happened with Chernobyl.

First we heard it was unstable but nothing to worry about. Few days later the roof blew off. They tried the helicopter trick too of course that can not work as most of the water misses completely and its no better then pissing on the reactors from 20ft away.

One of the reactors is MOX plutonium this itself has a positive temperature coefficient they go into thermal run away VERY easy. Regarding the 600,000 used fuel rods stacked up the upper level tanks. Where do you think these rods are now after the roof blew off and half the walls are missing? I bet most of them are strewn all OVER the plant inside and out just smouldering on the ground now.

Iodine may just safe your life. A top nuke scientist said on the radio tonight when, and not if, this blows up the ENTIRE northern hemisphere will be radioactive for a good 3 or 4 years. He expects around 50 million people will die of cancer over the next 10 years. While the radiation may not acute for immediate danger outside of Japan its the constant low level for years which will cause the accumulative effect leading to thyroid failure and cancers.

During Chernobyl there was 800,000 men as "cleaners" in and around the plant. 100,000 died within 12 months. Using health data records from European countries and extrapolation figures its now known 1 million people have since died of radiation linked illness over the last 25 years. A a further 5 million people are suffering today with general illness ranging from tumours to auto immune disease and thyroid problems which has a direct statistical and proximity to Chernobyl using before and after health data.

This time will be MUCH more serious. For a start world crops are already in short supply. But what will happen when all the food drop in the US, Canada and elsewhere is radioactive and can not be consumed? This includes milk usually the first to become radioactive and water supplies.

[mbrownn]

Booooooom

What causes nuclear explosions?

When you get critical mass

Critical Mass Uranium

So what is exploding?

Hydrogen gas is a by-product of meltdown in a fuel rod.

The structure of a reactor is designed to withstand a hydrogen explosion caused by gas in the building. It will knock off the cladding at the top of the building but the structure will be undamaged.

The energy of the explosions at reactor 1 and 3 seemed to have more energy than a hydrogen explosion but not enough to be a full nuclear explosion of all the fissile material so what happened?

In reactor 1 I believe a partial meltdown occurred in the storage lagoon causing a critical mass of molten fuel to form on the bottom of the lagoon, even if there was water in the lagoon, the reaction would boil this water so fast it could not cool it. As soon as there is enough fissile material in the molten pool it will explode blasting the rest of the remaining fuel up and out and igniting the hydrogen (sort of a small H bomb).

Reactor No2 was more violent, I believe that there were two or more pools of molten fuel that while not being big enough to explode by themselves, when they flowed across the bottom of the storage lagoon they met making a pool much bigger than critical mass giving a more energetic explosion. (A bit bigger H bomb)

The fissile materials in a critical mass are mostly consumed and therefore the radiation is lower from the exploded materials than the fuel that did not explode.

Chernobyl produced much more radioactve contamination spread over a wider area than an atomic bomb. It was the unconsumed fuel that was ejected that was the greatest source of radioactive contamination. This, in my opinion, has happened at least twice at Fukushima and may happen again.

[dutchdivco]

Yes and,,..

"Chernobyl produced much more radioactve contamination spread over a wider area than an atomic bomb. It was the unconsumed fuel that was ejected that was the greatest source of radioactive contamination. This, in my opinion, has happened at least twice at Fukushima and may happen again."
Yes, and again what about those spent fuel rods, stored at the level of the top of the core; much 'dirtier' than the fuel rods in the reactor, and blown all to hell when the explosions occurred.We are ****ed.Jim

[kcarring]

Proof of disinformation

You can see what looks like the secondary containment vessel from an AGR in the middle of the framework but when you look at the plan of the building, the reactor secondary containment is actually lower down.

I do not see your observations as stated. I see a diagram that clearly shows there is no "roof" on the containment area of the spent fuel rods, instead, an opening to the upper level. It stands to reason that in such a plant, you would, in fact want the roof to blow off in the event of a hydrogen explosion. It clearly would act as a pressure release valve. Not unlike my HHO setup when I screw up, if my top cap didn't blow, I'd have spark making it all the way back to the reactor. Also, these plants do not use graphite. Explosions would be vapor, apparently, which hugely makes them differ from Chernobyl. Also, steam (while radioactive) is a good sign. No steam means no water, no water means disaster. Lastly, you have tens of thousands of people (literally) walking around with Geiger counter alarms. Anderson Cooper is one of them. If the fuel rods blew sky high already, we'd be certainly hearing about it, BIG TIME. Radiation deaths nearby would be typical. This isn't happening.

I hope to God you are absolutely wrong.

Whether they get this under control is another story altogether.

[kcarring]

With all due respect to the Japanese, not CNN

With all due respect to the stupidity of this entire situation, I'm not going to argue that this couldn't have, and should not have been prevented, however...

CNN is making a typical fear feeding sensational effort to placing an emphasis on the Japanese Government's supposed lack of control, and lack of transparency and I think it is potentially a disgrace. How typical of CNN to "fill" their programming out with controversy, and without any clear evidence to back their views. Since when has any government proven to provide complete transparency during pandemonium and disaster. Could we trust the government's reports during 911? Was Anderson Cooper jumping all over the government when that s$#! was going down?

1. Of course it is the power company in control. Who in their right mind, paid any amount for a living is going to send in an independent group of crisis analysts into a nuclear plant during meltdown. Why on earth would you send MORE experts in to be dangerously exposed, when you have already killed many in the process. Not to mention... who in their government office suit would be willing? And even if they were... No MBA is going to get this job done. The nuclear engineers and power engineers who are employed by this plant are clearly the people who ought to be dealing with it.

2. With a political system as organized as Japan's, if the Japanese Energy council fealt the need to have the situation thoroughly assessed by independant's, they do have the power to do so. Perhaps they feel that the best men for the job are already on it.

3. If any race on this planet could muster men insanely courageous enough to go in and do whatever is necessary, even at the cost of their own lives, i think history has shown Japan is the nation to rely on, for courage - those workers are commiting suicide as we rest, and that's really something, wow.

There will be decades available for criticism, for now I'll just pray for those poor bastards walking into pure hell.

[SilverToGold]

Lastly, you have tens of thousands of people (literally) walking around with Geiger counter alarms. Anderson Cooper is one of them. If the fuel rods blew sky high already, we'd be certainly hearing about it, BIG TIME. Radiation deaths nearby would be typical. This isn't happening.

LOL.... yeah, and if free energy devices were real, we'd all have them BIG TIME since we all hate spending so much on oil.

Anderson Cooper would tell us? Really?? He's an heir to the shady Astor fortune, is related to the Vanderbilt family and is totally CIA. He's a total insider and they DO NOT CARE ABOUT US to put it nicely. Im fact they want us all dead cause we're all "useless eaters" to them.

The situation in Japan is bad... planes, passengers and even luggage from Japan are setting off radiation detectors at airports! You better bet that this is the worse nuclear power plant disaster this world has ever seen! And you won't be getting any warning from your so called government. They want you dead.

[kcarring]

LOL.... yeah, and if free energy devices were real, we'd all have them BIG TIME since we all hate spending so much on oil.

Anderson Cooper would tell us? Really?? He's an heir to the shady Astor fortune, is related to the Vanderbilt family and is totally CIA. He's a total insider and they DO NOT CARE ABOUT US to put it nicely. Im fact they want us all dead cause we're all "useless eaters" to them.

The situation in Japan is bad... planes, passengers and even luggage from Japan are setting off radiation detectors at airports! You better bet that this is the worse nuclear power plant disaster this world has ever seen! And you won't be getting any warning from your so called government. They want you dead.

I don't doubt this is getting bad but if you think that the words of the newsmen have everyone fooled, and that in reality the core, the fuel itself has already blown off, you seriously have to consider the fact a few people would have noticed. And raised attention. That is absolutely ridiculous. this situation has experts all over the world on the edge of their seat. This is too big to "cover up" my friend. You cannot fry a country with nuclear radiation and "not notice" or "keep it secret".

In the days to come if what has been proposed, DOES HAPPEN... we'll know. Just like we'd notice if the moon was missing from the sky.

[mbrownn]

I do not see your observations as stated. I see a diagram that clearly shows there is no "roof" on the containment area of the spent fuel rods, instead, an opening to the upper level. It stands to reason that in such a plant, you would, in fact want the roof to blow off in the event of a hydrogen explosion. It clearly would act as a pressure release valve. Not unlike my HHO setup when I screw up, if my top cap didn't blow, I'd have spark making it all the way back to the reactor. Also, these plants do not use graphite. Explosions would be vapor, apparently, which hugely makes them differ from Chernobyl. Also, steam (while radioactive) is a good sign. No steam means no water, no water means disaster. Lastly, you have tens of thousands of people (literally) walking around with Geiger counter alarms. Anderson Cooper is one of them. If the fuel rods blew sky high already, we'd be certainly hearing about it, BIG TIME. Radiation deaths nearby would be typical. This isn't happening.

I hope to God you are absolutely wrong.

Whether they get this under control is another story altogether.

Yes I believe that they would want the cladding to blow off in the case of a hydrogen explosion because to contain it would be more destructive to the reactor structure. Also hydrogen needs oxygen to explode in this way.

Inside a reactor core, there is insufficient oxygen to cause a big hydrogen explosion, so the only things that can cause a rupture are overpressure and a nuclear explosion. I do not believe the latter has happened but it is clear from the pictures that reactor 3 has its core breached from the steam that is venting out of it.

I agree that steam could be a good sign as that would mean that the fuel rods were still in the lagoon, notice there is no steam from reactor 1. No steam, no smoke and no fire means no fuel rods, Gone.

The area of the lagoon on reactor 3 is gone or blown down to a lower level, either way this is a major disaster. The energy of this explosion was huge; parts of the building were blown a kilometre into the air along with some of the building contents. I can tell you that there is very little equipment above a reactor, only lifting equipment, so what were those objects we all could see? If it were the reactors that I have worked on, I would say it was the pile cap and the rod handling equipment, but it is not an AGR like I have worked on. A pile cap weighs 1000s of tonnes by the way.

The damage to reactor 4 looks worse than 1 and less than three but the truth is we cannot tell from the images I have seen. The lagoon area is open to the environment but there is damage both above and below this area. It looks like the main blast was out to the seaward side of the building. It is consistent with an explosion in the lagoon area, blasting both up and down as well as out. I have no idea as to the damage to the core. Remember that it only takes 35 pounds of uranium to go critical and there is much more than this in the lagoon. An explosion of this much material would not be as big as Hiroshima but would disperse all the other materials in the area. Has this happened at 4? I have no idea. I suspect it did at 1 and especially 3.

Unfortunately I cannot understand Japanese but using google translate I have been able to find out a little. There is radiation consistent with a Chernobyl type event in the areas surrounding the power plant and beyond. I believe we have been lucky to some extent in that much of this has gone out to sea where it will effect us less directly.

I have not heard of any deaths from radiation or any radiation sickness in the news; however witnesses in the area are reporting radiation sickness symptoms on blogs.

In the nuclear industry you are not given a Geiger counter, only a film badge which has to be developed to get an indication of dose. I would be surprised if there were more than a few hundred Geiger counters available in the area and most of these would not be in the hands of the public. Most of the Geiger counters at Fukushima power station are probably still in the plant.

I am not yet up to date on the condition of the reactors at the plant and I am painting a potential disaster magnitude, like you, I hope I am wrong.

[mbrownn]

They don’t have everyone fooled, listen to the blogs.

I don’t thing we have had a core explosion, it’s been in the lagoons which is actually worse than a core explosion as far as the amount of radioactive material ejected. Its not too big to cover up, the bigger the lie the more people will believe it. The coverup and disinformation has already begun, they cannot keep it secret but they will spin it to minimise peoples reaction to it. Remember these are the ones that want nuclear power; they make money out of it.

If the moon had disappeared, I doubt most would notice and others would be in denial. I can see many intelligent people where I live that are in denial, I guess that the consequences of this are so bad that people don’t want to think about it, just like 911.

Take care my friend, I hope for all our sakes that it is not a worst case scenario and I feel so sad for the plight of the Japanese people.

[dutchdivco]

As a 'disinformation campaign, its surreal

I don't speak japanese, so can't really guage what they are being told, but what i see on the media in the US is, well, surreal. Its like what you say; on the one hand, they put out 'pablum', so that those who want to believe 'everything is alright' can keep their ship afloat, on that river in egypt.
On the other hand, they show the exploding buildings, and cut-away drawings of the plants, and you don't have to be a nuclear scientist to figure out that their pablum doesn't comport with the facts.
They have an 'expert' explain the international rating system for nuclear disasters, 1-7 with Chernoble being a 7, and 3 mile being a 5.Because while 3 mile was a partial meltdown, and steam release, "no radiation was released" (yeah right).Anyway, then this expert says that Japan is still 'behind' 3 mile.
And then they show films of containment buildings exploding, DIDN'T happen at 3 mile, show films of the helicopter fly-by with buildings blown to hell,
spent fuel rods on fire, etc. and then this expert says japan is still not as bad as 3 mile, where ther were no explosions, no reactor breaches, no problems with spent fuel rod ponds drying up.There is a total disconnect.I can only think its "lets not give some little old lady a heart attack, so lets put out reassuring pablum."But, at the same time, as you say, they can't really conceal the facts; they are right there.Its so strange."Don't look at the man behind the curtain, Dorothy! I am the great and powerful OZ!"

[mbrownn]

you got it.

If people knew the gravity of the situation they would be acting to get nuclear plants shut down NOW. The British and others are building dozens of new plants with little or no consultation from the people.

I’m not in favour of any particular form of energy generation but I see that nuclear is not something that we should be doing at this time and we don’t know what to do with the waste either. It is now proven that we are not building safe plants.

I understand that things can break but if the cost of failure is “mass destruction” then the price is too high. I have worked in coal plants and they are dirty smelly horrible places at the best of time, but if they go bang it does not effect the whole planet. Solar might be expensive but it isn’t going to pollute the planet in an accident.

Its time the Greenies stopped complaining about CO2, a life giving gas that plants breath and approached real issues. Without CO2 there would be no plants and all the animals would die, including us. If there were more CO2 like in the Middle Ages, plants would thrive and food production would go up.

We have to bring our governments to order and those that control them blah blah blah.

God I sound like Alex Jones now

[Savvypro]

Yesterday (Friday 18th) I watched the ITV news at 10 here in the UK (one of the main news programs on the main 5 channels), they didn't cover the break down of the CEO of the power company. They only touched on the rating going up to level 5, but it was nothing to worry about. Their coverage is in line with the propaganda.

The day I posted about the spent fuel rod issue, RT later that night had a expert on, that set the record straight, he didn't mention all the spent fuel rods - just talked about the ones above the reactors.

Up until that point it seamed that RT was also going with the propaganda but was slightly leaning towards: this may not be correct as the Japanese government and especially the Power company which runs the plant can't be relied on to tell the truth.

As the interview was live, it forced their hand - see: YouTube - RussiaToday's Channel

This next video is of one of the RT reporters taking radiation readings upto 150 miles from the plant: YouTube - RussiaToday's Channel

[dutchdivco]

"Equal' treatment

Not that I'm a big fan of Big Oil, but,....When the deep water horizon accident happened, Obama admin. promptly shut down drilling operations in the gulf; all drilling operations. And kept them shut down, even after Govenors, etc. were begging them to lift the moratorium.
This happens, and they consider safety inspections, and possible changes to their safety requirements, etc.No shut downs .Hardly even handed treatment.Jim

[dutchdivco]

Alas too late, the sheep look up

Anyone posting on this thread, who hasn't seen it yet, scroll down and read the post "Any energic way to help the japanese tunami and quake?" it will break your heart, and put to rests our petty arguments about how much disinformation there is, etc.
I am on a Yahoo iodine group; they've had more new members in the last week than they normally get in 6 mos.
No doubt this will be an increasing trend; BP oil disaster, this nuke disaster, each time something like this happens, a few more sheep look up, and don't like what they see.Whereas the rest, bury their head deeper in the sand.
No doubt you've all seen the mixed message media, AGAIN; there's radioactive iodine in the drinking water in Tokyo, in spinach 60 miles away from the plant, and in milk 20 miles."Oh, but if you drank a glass of that milk every day for a year, or ate the spinach every day for a year, it wouldn't expose you to as much radiation as 1 CAT scan."Thing is, when you get a CAT scan, radiation travels thru your body, out other side, and is gone.When you drink, eat or breath in radioactive fallout, it stays in your body, and causes cancer cells.It has definetly surpassed 3 mile, and I believe is close to chernoble, and may well surpass it, before its over.God forgive us all.