The Edwin Gray Pulsed Capacitor Discharge Electric Engine

[toranarod]

working hard

Thanks

Today I ran the first test with the capacitor discharging into the second drive coils.
To my surprise it actually worked. I collected 350 volts from the main drive coils and stored it in a 47 uf capacitor. This really worked; it is possible to increase the RPM and torque of your motor with out drawing any more energy from the battery. I used all the same parameters as out lined in my Adams motor post. Except I used the back EMF to generate more power. It took 2 seconds to charge and then discharge the capacitor. Every time the capacitor discharged into the drive coils the motor under went shock acceleration the effect was very impressive. Like it was given a hit with a hammer.
The RPM was increase 3 time to what it was doing before the collected EMF system was activated. The faster the motor ran the quicker the cap charged. The interval time decreased until it seemed to reach a constant velocity. is this why Gray got so excited? I am going to be working on this with the intentions of expanding it.
My system is very conservative at this point and I have order my caps in higher ranges.
Another exciting thing was the collapsing felid of the second drive coils. This was an even higher voltage. At the moment it has not been easy to measurer because it’s off the scale of my scope and I have been more interested in the other parameters.
Lots of tuning to do and data to collect next post I will present some figures.

I will get this going one day.

more info soon already made more improvements, works in ways you could not expect.






There is a phase shift between current and voltage - 90 degree lead for the cap and 90 degrees lag for the coil. At one exact point in time they are both 180 degrees out of phase XL and XC cancel out and the only thing in the circuit is R in ohms. That’s when the voltage increases in amplitude. I would say that with the Gray motor the voltage was off the chart. This explains the RF transmissions. All this can be calculated. It gets more complicated because we are working in a pulsed DC setup. I will be looking for these effects. It is also what Nikola Tesla based his wireless transmission towers on.
And what most of the energy experiments talk about. I think Gray’s motor is no exception.

[Neight]

Ok, this is still a bit over my head, but i think i have a very rudimentary understanding of what is going on here. I have to say, this sounds very exciting and I am quite impressed!!
Nice work on your first successful test!
Really looking forward to watching where you go with this one!

[toranarod]

high voltage transistors

Thanks Rod.

The simple cap discharge circuit I use is just the solidstate cap dump circuit John Bedini designed. Basically a 555 timer regulates the dump frequency, with a little mod Rick F designed to allow some adjustment to the on time as well. The 555 sends its signal pulse through a LED for visual reference and then through an opto isolator, this one is the h11d1. From there it is a simple darlington arrangement, 2n3440 and parallel bank of HV transistors.

Erfinder got me onto these transistors, and I wanted to try them out, they are alot cheaper than the MJL21194's I was buying, I got 10 for $30AUD off ebay. They are the 2SC family, namely the 2SC5047 (800v, 25 amps) or the 2SC5244A (1600v, 30 amps). Designed for use in horizontal deflection output on CRT televisions. Ive yet to test them at anything over 120vdc. Im no chip guru, so I cant offer you much more than that. And my arrangements are fairly primitive compared to what they could be with the use of micro controllers and such. Im sure your design already surpasses what I have on the bench. Id love to see a simple PWM circuit that could trigger at a variable frequency, variable pulsewidth and also be triggered by a separate device, like a hall sensor. The output would simply need to pass through an isolator of sorts before triggering the HV HC switch.

I would recommend looking at the info Peter L has released on this motor, along with the "Gray Tube Replication" thread on this forum. While the tube may or may not be essential in this application (it is more geared towards commutation approaches) the thread is full of little gems and unusual behavior with a variety of circuits that mix high and low voltage discharges. The results are interesting, and often different to what one would expect.

I wanted to push the SG circuit hard to see what it was capable of with the above in mind. With the same motor as seen in the cap discharge video I ran 130VDC input, with a measly 24v bank charging on the backend (yikes ) Probably not the smartest way to go about it but nothing popped or exploded despite the batteries almost instantly jumping up over 16v each. It took perhaps 8-10 seconds in the last video for 1000uF to be charged up to 300vdc, with only 12v 1 amp max. @ 130vdc input those caps would be full almost instantly. And my input was still 1 amp. Could never figure that one out. Anyway here is the vid if you are interested.

YouTube - 120v Bedini monopole

And take a look at Erfinders too. A great little feature of charging the cap off one wire ala Bedini.

YouTube - SS SG driving shunt wound motor.mpg


Regards

Thanks for the transistor number I am going to get them I need the ASAP.
the voltage coming of the second coils is HI
cheers

[toranarod]

next step

The next step
return energy collected by the second drive stage test the energy to see if
more has some how been created than as it was when as single collection system.

[toranarod]

The next step
return energy collected by the second drive stage test the energy to see if
more has some how been created than as it was when as single collection system.

This is working in unexpected ways.
I just assumed they would dump there entire load into the coils but this is not the case.
When the system stars and get into a operation balance.
We can decease the charge time because there is only a need to top up the caps potential
It is now surprising me how fast they can be recharged it appears it only takes 1 and a ½ revolution of the rotor to replace the energy used.
I am still setting up the motor to establish an operational concept before starting measurements.

[ren]

Awesome work Rod!

Its good to see the thing accelerates with those kicks. I did a test a while ago where I filled a 10000uF cap (overkill) to 200v and discharged it through a large inductance, placed next to the rotor. Even with the drive coils in place and not functioning the rotor bucked something fierce and rotated 6 or 7 full revolutions. This was with an air core too, and the drive coils were cored, causing drag. The challenge for me has always been automating the system and a method to choose when the cap dumps, ie not every revolution, but once the cap has filled to a set voltage.

Im going to study your schematic a little closer now. Im delving into an arduino board a friend lent me to broaden my horizons a little in micro controllers. I think thats what I will need in the future for better control.


Tell me, have you done any tests with varying the inductance/turns on your high voltage discharge coils? From the picture they look to be similar to the drive coils. And Im assuming the caps are only partially discharging because they have a very short on time? If the coil they discharge through has a lot of turns then wouldnt this act like a choke, further decreasing the energy taken from the cap somewhat?

BTW I tested my solidstate SG out the other night, the cap pulser section is 32uF @ 400v. My 3 paralleled 2SC HV trannies had no problem dumping at 300v, didnt even get warm. Increased capacitance may alter that, but so far they seem to work well. With a single strand oscillating with the SG circuit @ 24v 350ma I could fill the caps to over 200v in a second or so. Now that Im pretty happy with that I will have to try and incorporate it into a motor.



Wheres the Erfinder... I know hes out there

[toranarod]

Awesome work Rod!

Its good to see the thing accelerates with those kicks. I did a test a while ago where I filled a 10000uF cap (overkill) to 200v and discharged it through a large inductance, placed next to the rotor. Even with the drive coils in place and not functioning the rotor bucked something fierce and rotated 6 or 7 full revolutions. This was with an air core too, and the drive coils were cored, causing drag. The challenge for me has always been automating the system and a method to choose when the cap dumps, ie not every revolution, but once the cap has filled to a set voltage.

Im going to study your schematic a little closer now. Im delving into an arduino board a friend lent me to broaden my horizons a little in micro controllers. I think thats what I will need in the future for better control.


Tell me, have you done any tests with varying the inductance/turns on your high voltage discharge coils? From the picture they look to be similar to the drive coils. And Im assuming the caps are only partially discharging because they have a very short on time? If the coil they discharge through has a lot of turns then wouldnt this act like a choke, further decreasing the energy taken from the cap somewhat?

BTW I tested my solidstate SG out the other night, the cap pulser section is 32uF @ 400v. My 3 paralleled 2SC HV trannies had no problem dumping at 300v, didnt even get warm. Increased capacitance may alter that, but so far they seem to work well. With a single strand oscillating with the SG circuit @ 24v 350ma I could fill the caps to over 200v in a second or so. Now that Im pretty happy with that I will have to try and incorporate it into a motor.



Wheres the Erfinder... I know hes out there

We can decease the charge time because there is only a need to top up the caps potential.

It is now surprising me how fast they can be recharged it appears it only takes 1 and a ½ revolution of the rotor to replace the energy used. Once again tuning and timing control is very important.


Meeting with my machining guy this weekend to discuses a multi stage version. I am going with an 8 stage system. I have this theory it will work like a V8 motor firing one every two revolutions but only one at a time.

I

[toranarod]

Awesome work Rod!

Its good to see the thing accelerates with those kicks. I did a test a while ago where I filled a 10000uF cap (overkill) to 200v and discharged it through a large inductance, placed next to the rotor. Even with the drive coils in place and not functioning the rotor bucked something fierce and rotated 6 or 7 full revolutions. This was with an air core too, and the drive coils were cored, causing drag. The challenge for me has always been automating the system and a method to choose when the cap dumps, ie not every revolution, but once the cap has filled to a set voltage.

Im going to study your schematic a little closer now. Im delving into an arduino board a friend lent me to broaden my horizons a little in micro controllers. I think thats what I will need in the future for better control.


Tell me, have you done any tests with varying the inductance/turns on your high voltage discharge coils? From the picture they look to be similar to the drive coils. And Im assuming the caps are only partially discharging because they have a very short on time? If the coil they discharge through has a lot of turns then wouldnt this act like a choke, further decreasing the energy taken from the cap somewhat?

BTW I tested my solidstate SG out the other night, the cap pulser section is 32uF @ 400v. My 3 paralleled 2SC HV trannies had no problem dumping at 300v, didnt even get warm. Increased capacitance may alter that, but so far they seem to work well. With a single strand oscillating with the SG circuit @ 24v 350ma I could fill the caps to over 200v in a second or so. Now that Im pretty happy with that I will have to try and incorporate it into a motor.



Wheres the Erfinder... I know hes out there

The coils are different. 9 mH and 5.6 mH Yes I have done test 3 months of test.
You are doing the same work please keep me informed. looking forward to any thing you can add.

This is the next version

[toranarod]

atraction

Tried something different today?

Question. has anybody who has built any kind of pulse motor ever tried attraction.

It has always been common excepted idea to push the magnets away just as they pass the coils. Would this be correct?

How about attracting them to the coils as they approaches the coils? Then stitching of just as they pass center. The magnet is already attracted to the iron cores. Why not attract them a bit more the extra energy used on approach will keep the rotor turning.
This then gives you the opportunity to push them on a bit more.
So why not collect the back EMF created on approach and discharge it to push the motor on again.

[erfinder]

The coils are different. 9 mH and 5.6 mH Yes I have done test 3 months of test.
You are doing the same work please keep me informed. looking forward to any thing you can add.

This is the next version

toranarod

Are you in the position to build a window motor?

Ren,

I'm here! Do me a favor and dust off your window motor.

Regards

[ren]

toranarod

Are you in the position to build a window motor?

Ren,

I'm here! Do me a favor and dust off your window motor.

Regards

Yes Sir!

Needs some work, whats the plan? Cap discharge into the window?

Will chat with you in the next couple of days (got some holidays due)

Regards

[toranarod]

toranarod

Are you in the position to build a window motor?

Ren,

I'm here! Do me a favor and dust off your window motor.

Regards

I have an old window motor. I built a year or so ago.
any thing I should be looking for?

[erfinder]

Yes Sir!

Needs some work, whats the plan? Cap discharge into the window?

Will chat with you in the next couple of days (got some holidays due)

Regards

Ren,

Right....well by the time we cross paths off forum, I will be moving on to the next phase.....

Take the switching circuit presently used on the window, and sit it in a box in a corner somewhere...you won't be needing it...

Lets say your window motor has three trifilar windings...configure one of those trifilar windings to operate as a standard school girl circuit, (One trigger, and two power strands..with recovery).

The recovery rail of the SG trifilar window winding(s) will charge three capacitors.... the rail must be setup so that the caps charge, and discharge independently from one another (diodes in the right places..). This ensures that the caps charge to the same potentials, and do not discharge into one another...

These caps must be discharged somewhere...discharge them into the second trifilar winding. Each strand has its own transistor, and its own capacitor... This is the torque producing section. The transistors in this section are optically isolated from the circuit triggering the transistors into conduction...(refer to the Bedini cap pulser for a general idea of how isolation can be accomplished simply..) The optical isolator can be driven by a hall sensor, or receive its signal from the SG trigger winding.....the latter makes things too easy...too easy is good..

The SG alone will not produce torque (in a no iron environment) however, it will accelerate a mass so you can expect some torque at high rpms (torque via flywheel effect) ....thats where the cap discharge into the second trifilar winding comes in....here you produce torque via cap discharge...couple the torque generated via cap discharge with the torque produced via flywheel effect and you have a pretty good combination...(my opinion)...

The cool thing about this is that you are accelerating the mass for peanuts....and the 70% that you recover you use to generate torque, only to recover 70% of that....(if you want...) (I pulled 70% out of my rear...don't take it as a literal figure...)

The talk going on lately is a reference to a no load generator...you have one trifilar left......watch the latest video on youtube from Dadhav and you will know how to setup your generators...my gut feeling....the generator will be non-reflective just like recovery is now! See my video on that....if and when the generator becomes non-reflective, then technically theres no reason why one couldn't drive trifilar one with the output of the on board generator...one would need only spin the rotor up to a speed where it begins to generate enough to power the SG.

The race is on...Lets see who gets there first.....

Regards

[toranarod]

more torque

I must stay focused on my project Please post all your results I would like to read about it. I need all the help I can get.

I am waiting on an order of electronic components for my EV Gray Adams motor Hydride. In the mean time I have been getting a few things sorted out. The shielding is complete. The extra phase is installed. Now looking at the torque problems?
There is more torque available if you attract the magnet to the coils on approach.
I have been able to establish the current consumption is the same but more torque is available with no increase in RPM. The other thing is timing is even more difficult because stopping the pulse at the right time is more crucial if you over shoot locking will occurs. I cannot decide at this point if the extra torque is worth the more complex electronics. I must test this to find out.

[toranarod]

Is repulsion basically the same as attraction. NO

I reversed the entire function of the system. I created am attraction pulse motor. This of course made the timing even more complex as you can imagine. Because now RPM affects every thing

The faster the motor runs the quicker you need to switch of the pulse. And visa versa.

Without going it long details this created much more torque a lot more in fact I could not stop the motor by grabbing hold off the center shaft. Unfortunately I am not in a position to be able to measure this with instruments and the math its not my field. All I can tell you was when I eventually got it even half tuned it was a brute.
I will look at this for a few more days.
has anybody tried this?