question on charging batteries

[Neight]

Ok, i decided to make a new post for this question, because it doesn't fit my other post i have going about the same circuit.
I have found x4 - 6V batteries from an old power wheels toy car. they were all very nearly dead when i found them, and had been sitting around for years collecting dust.
3 of them are 6v 12 amp hours and the other one is 6v 9.5 amp hours. they are sealed lead acid batteries, and when i found them they only had about 600mV a piece. I have hooked them up in series to make 2 12v batteries. i have the 9.5 amp hour battery on the charge side, not sure what difference that makes, but i wanted to put all info that could be pertinent in here .
i hooked them up to my SSG circuit to see what happens.
so far my secondary has gone from 600mV up to just over 700mV!!
now here is the odd part and where my question lies. the two batteries i have put on the primary side initially dropped down to 4mV for a short time, then it popped back up to 600mV and stayed there for a bit. now they are up to nearly 900 mV and charging much faster than my charge battery.
why would the power side be charging faster than the secondary or at all. the way i understand this system, the power side should have went dead and then i was going to switch them and see if i could charge it back up. my hope was that i could keep cycling those batteries out and eventually get them back making 12v. but it seems my power batteries are charging faster than my charge batteries and both are charging reasonable fast, much faster than i was expecting given their initial charge!!

i have posted another video of my setup, and will likely keep adding to this series, mostly to help other new people watch me trouble shoot my system and begin to understand what is happening. watch them from the beginning, and i hope that eventually it will be a good series to watch and learn how to make these work. I have found a ton of videos on working motors, but not many where they didn't work and you could see why, so i am hoping that my mistakes will help other beginners

here is the link for anyone who is interested -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdoHwe6zB5w

if anyone can tell me what is going on here and why my primary batteries are charging at all, and even faster than the secondary, that would be very much appreciated!
thanks
N8

[blackchisel97]

First of all, sealed lead acid batteries (SLAB) are hard to restore once they go that low. They're sealed to eliminate or prevent any maintenance such as adding some water (distilled). Any battery when is left discharged will sulfate badly. To knock this dielectric/non conductive coating sharp and powerful spikes are needed. There is no way of doing such using one transistor SSG over any reasonable period of time. Beside, due to the anatomy of those batteries it may not work anyway. From what you have shown your circuit is not working. Transistor in such setup needs at least enough potential to cause n-p structure to conduct. At 0.6V it won't happen. To try desulfate such size battery you'll need tuned working circuit triggered either by rotor with magnets or solid state but you need more than 600mV to oscillate solid state SSG and you'll need some current too. What you have right now is some floating mA's but no charging of any sort.
I made some attempts in past to replenish water in SLAB batteries by removing plastic plugs and injecting couple ml of water with syringe. From several batteries I've tried only couple were restored. However, those batteries were at 11 -11.5V level when I got them and wouldn't gain from conventional charger.
If you want to experiment with SSG I would suggest to get your rotor (or any other, such as bike wheel) running first and try some lead acid, such as 12V motorcycle. They have semi transparent case allowing to see what is going on as well as examine condition of your plates and measure each cell to check for shorts. If you have a short cell your chances of recovering are very slim.
You need a coil made of AWG #26/#24 at least, to get some job done and decent transistor which won't fry at first spike.


Vtech

[Neight]

Thanks for the reply and good info Blackchisel97!!
I am leaving what i have hooked up for now, mostly because i don't have much else to do until i get a few more things (better rotor, better magnets, better spool to make my coil on). I have been watching it all day though and taking occasional meter readings, and so far the primary side has leveled out at around .870-.880V and seems to be staying there. My secondary side is still climbing, though very slowly, it is up to .710V up from the initial .600, so as long as it is willing to climb, i will leave it go!! We are in the buisiness of the "impossible" so why not right :P
worst case scenario is you are 100% right (which i do not doubt at all) and my junk batteries are indeed junk. best case, something unexpected happens and the batteries will still be useful. I am holding out hope
thanks again for the reply, and I have subscribed to your youtube channel so i can watch what you have lots of great people on this forum with youtube videos that have been enormously helpful to me so far!!
N8

[blackchisel97]

Thanks for the reply and good info Blackchisel97!!
I am leaving what i have hooked up for now, mostly because i don't have much else to do until i get a few more things (better rotor, better magnets, better spool to make my coil on). I have been watching it all day though and taking occasional meter readings, and so far the primary side has leveled out at around .870-.880V and seems to be staying there. My secondary side is still climbing, though very slowly, it is up to .710V up from the initial .600, so as long as it is willing to climb, i will leave it go!! We are in the buisiness of the "impossible" so why not right :P
worst case scenario is you are 100% right (which i do not doubt at all) and my junk batteries are indeed junk. best case, something unexpected happens and the batteries will still be useful. I am holding out hope
thanks again for the reply, and I have subscribed to your youtube channel so i can watch what you have lots of great people on this forum with youtube videos that have been enormously helpful to me so far!!
N8

You're very welcome Neight.
If I may ask, what is your goal? It seems like you tried to make SSG but based on the rotor which we used for cement batteries. Those rotors have neodymium magnets and air coils with reed switches. While is possible to charge small battery from them your task of restoring 9Ah SLAB is like a Mission Impossible for this circuit.
You can make quite efficient SSG based on computer fan (rewinding poles) or just using bearing assembly (you have to remove inner ring magnet and circuit). I have one of my older videos with SSG built on large hard drive armature and 3/4" craft magnets sandwiched between CD's. I still have this and it is capable of charging batteries such as yours. However, it would take ages to desulfate them. You need stronger pulse. You can do that with bifilar coil only. No need to make multifilar (yet ). There are many ways to skin the cat and few tricks to make the best of it.

Thank you for subscribing. I posted some of my older vid's when I was cleaning my comp. Quality wasn't great. I'll be glad to help anyway I can with your build. It is rewarding and addictive. When you start and get it working you are anxious to improve, change or build advanced setup.
I was recently helping someone from youtube to get solid state multifilar done. It is working very well according to him.


Vtech

[Neight]

right now, my only goal is to get my rotor spinning I am stalled out waiting on neo magnets to be delivered so that is the reason i hooked these batteries up, just to see what happens more or less. I needed 12V batteries according to the directions, and happened to have these on hand. they had been sitting around for years and were obviously dead. I really didn't (and still don't) expect much from what i am doing, but it's something to mess around with until my magnets get here.
I have been told it's tough to get the rotor spinning with the 9V batteries i have been using, and AA's don't do anything at all. i was all set to go buy some new batteries today, and happened to remember that i left these 6V's laying around and figured it was worth a shot. if i could get them to charge, that would be free useful batteries to use. I honestly didn't expect to see any charging, and was pleasantly surprised to see them doing anything at all. I figure i will leave this up and running until i get my magnets and batteries, and if nothing has happened by then, i will get rid of these 6Vs
I would be quite happy just to get a working motor right now, but all in good time
I have gotten loads of advice on here, some of it a bit conflicting, so I am still not certain why it's not working, but I am getting a good idea.
Just some harmless experimentation while i wait on UPS.
my current setup is a bit of a hodge podge of things i have seen in various videos. Much of what i have done is similar to Lidmotor's work, though even when i try his circuits with AA batteries, nothing happens with the rotor. from what i have been told, my ID on the core is too wide and not long enough, my core is not correct (though i really would prefer an air core for ease of use), and my magnets are too small. once i get everything i need here, I will likely take apart an old bike and use that to mount my magnets on, and I am looking for something to wind my coil on that better matches the dimensions for the core that i was given in my other post on this forum. I will obviously have to buy a few new batteries, and when i finally have all of that done, I hope to have this spinning under power
Once i get this rotor working, I would like to do just what you said, improve it and see where it takes me. John Bedini requests that you build it to spec first then worry about modification, so i am trying to stick to that, and mostly just messing around until i have everything i need. once i have one working and know better why and how it works, I would like to try some of these other circuits talked about on here (slayer exciter, joule thief ect.) and just explore!! I am already addicted and am enjoying myself quite a bit, though it is getting frustrating to not see anything working yet for my effort :/
either way, just trying to learn, and i learn much better through application than instruction, so i am diving in head first and hoping i don't get a concussion
I really do appreciate all your help here, and have started looking through your videos as well as several other's on this forum and overunity.com. incredibly exciting to watch it all, and see people's systems and understanding evolve! I hope that sooner than later i will be able to contribute and wont have so many noob problems!
thanks a ton!
N8

[blackchisel97]

@Neight

That's correct, you need a coil with relatively small ID to work with neo's. I have one rotor with triple stack 1/2" x 1/8". Rotor is made from large computer fan. I did remove ring magnet, fan armature and circuit board which could interfere. I used this to test cement batteries. This circuit has a reed switch to trigger and there is only one winding not bifilar.
If your goal is to charge larger batteries and desulfate the old ones I would suggest to start with a wheel and 2" x 1" x 3/8 or 1/2" ceramic magnets. Make your coil multifilar if you can (at least three wires) so you can advance it further. Start with one circuit using two coils and get going. Tune it, observe what it does. You'll be able to charge 9 - 20Ah batteries and rejuvenate them. You'll be able to restore discarded batteries and use them later. I did suggest a wheel since its mass and flywheel effect makes a difference.


Vtech

[Neight]

Thanks for the input again blackchisel97!!
I have left that setup over the weekend, and it is definitely going nowhere.
I really didn't expect what i have setup here to do anything, but it was fun to try, just for the experience, and the knowledge i got out of it
I am going to get some 12V lead acid batteries with a lower aH rating, and build a bigger rotor with more magnets, and see if i can at least get a motor running! I can tell I am getting close, and again, just waiting on my parts.
(I am much too impatient for online shopping )
thank you much for your help!! good advice is always appreciated!
N8

[blackchisel97]

Thanks for the input again blackchisel97!!
I have left that setup over the weekend, and it is definitely going nowhere.
I really didn't expect what i have setup here to do anything, but it was fun to try, just for the experience, and the knowledge i got out of it
I am going to get some 12V lead acid batteries with a lower aH rating, and build a bigger rotor with more magnets, and see if i can at least get a motor running! I can tell I am getting close, and again, just waiting on my parts.
(I am much too impatient for online shopping )
thank you much for your help!! good advice is always appreciated!
N8

Neight Try motorcycle dealers. After winter season many bike owners will find their batteries weak and they'll be getting new ones. Those are small batteries but they're easier to monitor than large, industrial ones. When you pick, make sure they're not sealed, maintenance free. Also visually check if there are no cracks (warning sign is when they're dry with no electrolyte left) and not swollen. You don't want those.
If I may suggest something to get you going instead of waiting and loosing momentum But first I need to know what do you have at your disposal, such as wire and decent transistor. Do you have 360 feet of at least AWG#24 wire (240' will do too) and one good transistor (MJL21194 would be great)?

Vtech

[Slider2732]

Just a thought Neight..have you tried putting an advert on your local Freecycle ?
Many kids will be wanting to use their trikes/cars/etc now the weather is warming up and the battery from last year might not be giving as good run times so folks buy new ones. The chargers are, I believe, not exactly professional grade for those. You never know, there could be a freebie only a few streets away.

[Slider2732]

LOL - we were kinda thinking the same thing at the same time !

[Neight]

@blackchisel97 - Thanks for the info! sadly, before i got your post, i ran to radio shack and picked up the cheapest 12V SLAB batteries i could find, just to be able to work with. I can go pick up the non SLAB motorcycle batteries you suggested, but for today, what i have is working, and that makes me smile!
at the moment i have several of the 2N3055 transistors for the Bedini SSG build, but not the MJL21194 that you asked about. I also don't have nearly as much #24 AWG wire that you asked about, but that is also something i can get with a little bit of time. I am very curious to find out what you are thinking though. now that my motor is working, I am looking to move on to what is next (improvements, or other experiments i can do with this type of setup). If you have any suggestions for me, i am all ears!!

@Slider2732 - Great idea about freecycle, I had not thought about that, but will also check there. I am gathering anything and everything that may be useful to me in the future to experiment with, so thank you very much for the suggestion!! I hope my post here has answered questions you may have had along the same lines. blackchisel97 was absolutely correct, a single bedini circuit and coil is not enough to charge a seriously dead battery, though i am going to hang onto these, and perhaps someday soon i will be able to make some use out of them!

Thanks to both of you for the suggestions, and I am always willing to learn, so if you think of anything that might be useful information, let me know. This is all very exciting, and I am ready to see where it takes me!

thanks again
N8

[ZeropointEnergy]

Charging battery dead short?

Ok, i decided to make a new post for this question, because it doesn't fit my other post i have going about the same circuit.
I have found x4 - 6V batteries from an old power wheels toy car. they were all very nearly dead when i found them, and had been sitting around for years collecting dust.
3 of them are 6v 12 amp hours and the other one is 6v 9.5 amp hours. they are sealed lead acid batteries, and when i found them they only had about 600mV a piece. I have hooked them up in series to make 2 12v batteries. i have the 9.5 amp hour battery on the charge side, not sure what difference that makes, but i wanted to put all info that could be pertinent in here .
i hooked them up to my SSG circuit to see what happens.
so far my secondary has gone from 600mV up to just over 700mV!!
now here is the odd part and where my question lies. the two batteries i have put on the primary side initially dropped down to 4mV for a short time, then it popped back up to 600mV and stayed there for a bit. now they are up to nearly 900 mV and charging much faster than my charge battery.
why would the power side be charging faster than the secondary or at all. the way i understand this system, the power side should have went dead and then i was going to switch them and see if i could charge it back up. my hope was that i could keep cycling those batteries out and eventually get them back making 12v. but it seems my power batteries are charging faster than my charge batteries and both are charging reasonable fast, much faster than i was expecting given their initial charge!!

i have posted another video of my setup, and will likely keep adding to this series, mostly to help other new people watch me trouble shoot my system and begin to understand what is happening. watch them from the beginning, and i hope that eventually it will be a good series to watch and learn how to make these work. I have found a ton of videos on working motors, but not many where they didn't work and you could see why, so i am hoping that my mistakes will help other beginners

here is the link for anyone who is interested -
YouTube - no motor battery charging experiment

if anyone can tell me what is going on here and why my primary batteries are charging at all, and even faster than the secondary, that would be very much appreciated!
thanks
N8

Hey N8,

I'm glad to hear that you are recharging the older batteries, the one I have tried to rescue is acting as a dead short.
I hook up the circuit and with that battery the neon bulb comes on and draw max current on the 0-1A panel meter i have in ( all I thought i needed didnt expect that haha )
I have tested with 9Vx2 batteries to ensure wasnt the circuit and the 1.6 Ohm/.25W load resistor in place of charging battery works fine, no issues.
Just wondering in you have same issue with some charging batteries in recent times?

Oh and have you obtained weird results with the batteries still or was that an issue due to the set-up? And I like that you posted the errors that can occur I have been making sure I takes notes of any error or anomoly to unsure is documented and can be replicated.

Regards
Zero

[Neight]

Hey N8,

I'm glad to hear that you are recharging the older batteries, the one I have tried to rescue is acting as a dead short.
I hook up the circuit and with that battery the noen bulb comes on and draw max current on the 0-1A panel meter i have in ( all I thought i needed didnt expect that haha )
I have tested with 9Vx2 batteries to ensure wasnt the circuit and the 1.6 Ohm/.25W load resistor in place of charging battery works fine, no issues.
Just wondering in you have same issue with some charging batteries in recent times?

Oh and have you obtained weird results with the batteries still or was that an issue due to the set-up? And I like that you posted the errors that can occur I have been making sure I takes notes of any error or anomoly to unsure is documented and can be replicated.

Regards
Zero

Hey Zero, looks like we are on the same path
After a few days I gave up on those old 6V batteries (still have them, but saving them until I can make a charger big enough to fix them). They were much too sulfated for my (at the time) self oscillating SSG circuit. when i did get my rotor spinning, I hooked two of them up to the output and pretty much got the same results though. they would only accept a small surface charge that died straight away when I put a meter on them.
I have not had my neon light up with any batteries hooked to the output side, sounds like yours is probably hopeless (at least that one), bad cell in it causing a short.
From what i understand, it takes some seriously high output spikes to de-sulfate old batteries like I have that have sat around for years. one of my next projects I would like to build is a solid state charger that will do just that, send out big spikes capable of restoring those old batteries and in a reasonable amount of time
I am pretty excited to see where all this can go, but there is so many options :P
I am still finishing up my demo SSG box, also need to finish my big SSG that i can experiment with adding multiple coils to among other things
sounds like i need to get back to work, or none of this will ever get done

N8

[blackchisel97]

@ZeropointEnergy

I got recently few batteries to restore. Among them one sealed from toy electric car and sealed car battery (spiral cell technology). With those sealed it isn't possible to measure each cell before plugging into the charger but watching input draw will give an idea that one or more cells are shorted out. I usually don't bother with those batteries. Waste of time imo.
In case of regular acid batts. you can measure electrolyte density and make a wire probe to test each cell before dedicating your time and effort. Each cell should have near 2V. If you see one cell nearly flat and there is a fluid in it the chances are that plates are shorted out. Even with remaining cells being restored, this one cell will prevent entire battery from reaching 12.5V. Back in 70' I would remove faulty cell and swap with a good one from other unit, flush and put new electrolyte in it etc. Today there are plenty of batteries being recycled/discarded and finding some decent one worth restoring is still possible.


Vtech

[ZeropointEnergy]

charging

Hey Zero, looks like we are on the same path
After a few days I gave up on those old 6V batteries (still have them, but saving them until I can make a charger big enough to fix them). They were much too sulfated for my (at the time) self oscillating SSG circuit. when i did get my rotor spinning, I hooked two of them up to the output and pretty much got the same results though. they would only accept a small surface charge that died straight away when I put a meter on them.
I have not had my neon light up with any batteries hooked to the output side, sounds like yours is probably hopeless (at least that one), bad cell in it causing a short.
From what i understand, it takes some seriously high output spikes to de-sulfate old batteries like I have that have sat around for years. one of my next projects I would like to build is a solid state charger that will do just that, send out big spikes capable of restoring those old batteries and in a reasonable amount of time
I am pretty excited to see where all this can go, but there is so many options :P
I am still finishing up my demo SSG box, also need to finish my big SSG that i can experiment with adding multiple coils to among other things
sounds like i need to get back to work, or none of this will ever get done

N8

Hey N8,

Well I found out cant use all batteries that you find or salvage and since stopped trying to use dead short battery the SSG has worked like a dream.
At the moment I made a new housing to eliminate friction and instabillity the other unit possessed.
When I'm happy with that I can start to document the charging/discharging and get the COP of the device.
I will hook the LED up to re-tune the SSG as is now 1mm high air gap from coil and was still finding the sweet spot, have pages of data testing the 450-550 Ohm range.
I was obtaining great results at 470-490 Ohms was consistantly 190mA/240Hz and 140mA/200Hz respectively.
That was with me taking out screw from a side and making sure the load was off the shaft lol, reason for the new housing
Thanks for the input N8

Regards
Zero