Interesting concept for a water purification system

[Armagdn03]

I have had an idea for a water purification system for a while now which can be made from simple materials by any person, that does not use consumable materials like carbon for the filtering process.

I am looking for from anybody interested also in this, as I think there are a ton of creative design concepts to be considered with wide implications. This will basically combine a magnet, the kelvin water drop experiment concept, and a naturally induced water vortex.

So here we go (example uses salt water),

Imagine salt water. In water, salt dissolved is in the form of the ions Na+ (sodium positive) and Cl- (Chlorine negative).

Now this salt water is in a round glass cup, with foil on the outside and an insulated electrode straight down its center. If we apply a voltage to the electrode in the center and the foil on the cup, we create a potential gradient across the salt water from the cups circumference towards the center. If the center electrode is +, then all of the Cl- ions will be attracted to it. The cup (with foil on outside) being negative will attract all of the Na+ ions.

Now imagine perpendicular to this electric field (which goes from center out) is a magnetic field. So you could imagine a ring magnet like found in a loud speaker that the cup is resting on.

The charged particles (ions) will experience a force per the right hand rule when they are moved.

Normally, the ions are all scrambled together, meaning no real net charge, and no macroscopic magnetic field interaction takes place, BUT, we have just separated the positive and negative ions.

Now if we give our salt water in the cup a spin, Some ions will be pulled further towards the periphery, and others will be pulled even tighter towards the center. This is the right hand rule showing us that a particle, with charge, moving in an magnetic field will experience a force at 90 degrees to this. This is Lorenz force. This is how Magnetrons work etc.

The advantages now are that we can separate or stratify ions to either the periphery or the center in a very strong way, using static electric field, and static magnetic field both of which really require no real large power for their upkeep. Magnets hold a static B field for years and years, and we can use the kelvin water drop experiment concept to create the needed potential gradient.

The easiest way to create the spin needed to see this strong stratification of the water, is to let the water spin itself! Think water vortex. There are tons of examples out there, and the work of Victor Schauberger has already shown many ways to use a vortex for purification which are right along these lines.

So now you have a vortex with its central axis perpendicular to a magnetic field. You have a potential gradient from the circumference to the center (radial) and you have a separation of ions within the moving mass of water.

As the water drops, you can take advantage of the Kelving water drop experiment concept.

Electricity from water - Kelvin water drop generator - Naked Scientists Kitchen Science 2009

YouTube - Kelvin's water droplet battery problem figured out !!


So now we have the water motion (vortex) and the voltage potential provided by gravity, and the B field provided by permanent magnets!
No HV electronics generators needed!

Now there are many ways to take advantage of this stratification process through the interaction of water in a properly oriented B field and Potential gradient for purification.

I have not yet built this and am looking for help in design ideas. Feel free to jump in.

[sucahyo]

My opinion:
- I think ionization require current. No one succeed doing ionizing with voltage only (Meyer). So insulated electrode may not ionize at all. However using even platinum plated electrode would not has long life with sea water.
- ionization of flowing water would be higher rate but will also leave the water not touching the electrode unaffected
- magnet may not be strong enough to separate ion
- there are heavy metal or other toxic material in the sea water because of pollution
- if the Cl- is forced to become Chlorine gas, the water will become less acid.
- there is effort of using only vortex to make the water less salty, see copy copieren video.

[Armagdn03]

My opinion:
- I think ionization require current. No one succeed doing ionizing with voltage only (Meyer). So insulated electrode may not ionize at all. However using even platinum plated electrode would not has long life with sea water.
- ionization of flowing water would be higher rate but will also leave the water not touching the electrode unaffected
- magnet may not be strong enough to separate ion
- there are heavy metal or other toxic material in the sea water because of pollution
- if the Cl- is forced to become Chlorine gas, the water will become less acid.
- there is effort of using only vortex to make the water less salty, see copy copieren video.

Thanks poking in!

- I think ionization require current. No one succeed doing ionizing with voltage only (Meyer). So insulated electrode may not ionize at all. However using even platinum plated electrode would not has long life with sea water.

I think perhaps you might have misread where the ions im my post come from. What you are referring to is self ionization of the water, or ionization caused by current flow through water...In my description the ions are already present, they are the impurities, this is what makes it an electrolytic solution. I used salt water as a description. Mix salt in with water, and walla, you have ions. Dont think Stan Meyer, as this is a different form of ionization.

- ionization of flowing water would be higher rate but will also leave the water not touching the electrode unaffected

The insulated electrodes are only to provide an electric field gradient, nothing more, whether there is water in the cup, air, oil etc... the electric field will pass radially through. No electron flow, just field.

- magnet may not be strong enough to separate ion

The ions are separated by the electric field, once this happens, they have either a net positive charge towards the center and negative towards circumference, or vice versa. The magnetic field is there because of the way these charged particles act according to the right hand rule in a magnetic field. This is further separation of ions, AND further stimulation of rotational vortex. The magnet strength is more than enough!

- there are heavy metal or other toxic material in the sea water because of pollution

Yes I agree, all those dissolved materials are gennerally ions, not electrically neutral particles (and even if they were they can still be separated in this manor) The vortex naturally stratifies according to density therefore even without the magnetic / electric assist, the vortex itself can do much of this. The electric field and magnetic field augment the gravity induced vortex by including a self induced electrical vortex as well.

- if the Cl- is forced to become Chlorine gas, the water will become less acid.

Right now what I have first described will do this! in fact many electrically based water purification systems on the market (kongen) sell products which output two forms of water, one good for you one not so good...same phenomenon.

Put the chlorinated water through again, and you will have a separation of neutral particles (water molecules) and the highly negatively charged ions (chlorine).

- there is effort of using only vortex to make the water less salty, see copy copieren video.

Yes, I have about 5 books on Victor Schauberger and people who have continued his research. I am combining this fantastic effort and findings (building of the shoulders of giants) with the concept of a magnetron electrical vortex. This is good information! Keep it coming! this will help out alot, I have been taking almost all my vortex design queues from such places.

[Armagdn03]

hello

Well well,

Seems this idea has dawned on another before.

Apparatus and method for magneto ... - Google Patent Search

"Apparatus and method for magneto-electrodynamic separation of ions within an electrolytic fluid"

Let me read from part of it....

"1) Field of invention
The field of invention is fluid treatment, and more specifically a method and apparatus for purifying an electrolytic fluid, separating the electrolytic fluid into layers having different pH properties and concentrating ions and charged particles within those layers.

Summary

In one aspect of a prefered emboidiment, an apparatus is provided in which an electric field and magnetic field intersect in a flow path of an electrolytic fluid separating positive and negative ions and diverting them away from the flow direction of the electrolytic fluid."

And it goes on from there. I think its safe to say it can be done, no question here. The question lies in actually building it!

I do not want forced water injection like this patent! I want this to be built by the average person pouring rain water through.

So the question is, how exactly should it be designed????

this is what I am working on now.

[Armagdn03]

I don know why my last post started with an angry face, but im not angry. Ha ha ha

[Armagdn03]

From my initial fooling around with making simple vortexes out of household items (2 and 3 liter pop bottles, funnels for car oil etc, various containers) its pretty obvious that running a wire down the center will disrupt the vortical movement. Im going to have to think on this one...any ideas? I was thinking of either of suspending a rod only partially down but still any touching of the vortex sides seems to disrupt its movement.

For now I am headed to the local hardware store, pick up a few things.

[Armagdn03]

here is yet another awesome patent describing the same effect with its own spin on things.

Water purification: ion separation - Google Patent Search

I will borrow a few images and descriptions from this patent as it is worded very well.


NO doubt in my mind this will work, its just in the best possible design.

Some things to consider,

The electric field will cause the separation of ions without initial ion movement

The magnetic field only exerts a force when the ions move

Rotation through vortex or forced will cause rotational movement in the ions, which will cause them to move in a direction perpendicular to both their direction and the B field. So faster movement = greater force exerted on ions per the magnetic field.

[Armagdn03]

Oh man, here is a really interesting patent. These three patents together really paint an interesting picture.

Ion separation and removal unit with ... - Google Patent Search

Let me quote this from the following patent.

The magnetic field forces the ions, to move laterally to the conduit's ends, to discharge at electrodes in the outside chambers of the spiral conduit by short circuit, inducing a current that can be used. The only energy needed is that required to pump sea water into the spiral unit using permanent magnets with already built in energy. Adding a power source in series with the electric circuit speeds up the de-ionization process which pays for itself in the production of hydrogen and chlorine gases for commercial purposes. No running costs, no environmental problems.

[Armagdn03]

This patent was forwarded to me by user wojwrobel

espacenet - Original document

I have only read a bit of it as it is long, but this is another incredible one!

The second and third patent I posted alluded to the power generation aspect of this that I had not originally intended, but now it is very clear.

What I have really enjoyed about these patents is that they are creating technologies working with natrual forces in a unique way (wow working with nature is unique!). This is electricity, physics, chemistry all combined in a beautiful way.


thanks wojwrobel , if you have anything to add, love to hear from you!

[Armagdn03]

I really think this is an area people should start spending a larger amount of time investigating. Soon, you will not be able to buy expensive neo magnets, you may not be able to use the internet at all. Alot of the experiments on the "fringe" should probably be concentrated towards workable technologies which allow us to manipulate our world with the items readily available. Desalination and purification of water, and heat are up there.

This technology separates natural fluids, it distills, it creates energy, it it can be a closed cycle.

Quote from the last patent

"One advantage of the arrangement described hereinafter is the closed cycle of energy and materials. All chemicals are fully recovered and the overall mass is constant. Thus there is no environmental impact"

[boguslaw]

This is the ultimate water purification process simplified :
convert water into gas then gas into water
all other substances remain in container with no exception
then add required mineral salts and this is pure water for drinking
in process water can be charged with magnetic field energy also and get healing capabilities.

Of course I'm not talking about generating Brown gas from water.

[Armagdn03]

This is the ultimate water purification process simplified :
convert water into gas then gas into water
all other substances remain in container with no exception
then add required mineral salts and this is pure water for drinking
in process water can be charged with magnetic field energy also and get healing capabilities.

Of course I'm not talking about generating Brown gas from water.

Yes boguyslaw, I agree,

In fact I have wilderness survival training and years of "roughing it". One of the simplest ways to get water to dig bit of a hole, it will fill natrually with ground water, place clear plastic bag over the hole, and an empty cup beneath the bag. If you have it shaped right, the ground water will evaporate into air, condense on the bag, then drip into the cup purified.

What I find interesting about what I am proposing, is that through the hall effect with magnetism, and the coulomb force by potential gradient, we can stratify any ionic solution. THe two products of which are electrically charged.

You can have clear water simply by pouring through a device, no waiting for the sun to evaporate, or fire, etc.

On top of this the hall effect in separating the charged particles can be taken advantage of in collecting metals from sea water. It is not hard to see that each liquid, if given a common electrical connection will discharge, in a fashion very similar to electrolysis, gas will be evolved at one electrode (chlorine in the case of salt water) and sodium will deposit near the other electrode. This can be used not only for purification but for pulling metals out of sea water. Not only that but you route this electrical power through a load.

Sure sucks that china is halting export of precious metals....if only there were another huge abundant source....like the ocean....and if only we had a way to extract it.................

[eastcoastwilly]

Armagdn03,

Thanks for posting this information I am very concerned with what's happening with the disaster in Japan and it's effect on the rest of the world. I know that many substances are used to remove radiation from food and water. Things like Zeolite and Boron for example, but baking soda has been used for radiation remediation (scroll down) ). Or do a search for Baking Soda and radiation in google for tons of info.

I am wondering if maybe a little Sodium Bicarbonate can be used in place of "salt" as the electrolyte for this process.

If so could this be a possible answer to removing radioactive particulate from our drinking water ?


Just an idea to bounce off you, I'm not much of a chemist

Will

[Armagdn03]

Excellent question,

actually, heavy ions will be removed the easiest, one of the patents deliniates using such technology for removing heavy radioactive metals. i will elaborate more later

[eastcoastwilly]

I would be interested in seeing a conceptualization (hand drawn or whatever) of what you see this apparatus looking like and what construction materials (based on your early research) it could potentially be made from. It would be great to keep poorer countries in mind so that folks with little to no resources could do it as well. There are lots of folks who could contribute plenty on this forum....don't worry about it being too simple...that's a great starting point !!

Thanks for your research and insight !!



Will