Ignition Secrets by Aaron Murakami - *** NEW RELEASE ***

[Athal]

Plasma Replication

Aaron,

I've been long time studiing ignition sistems and I have to say that your compilation is very clear. Is a nice point for starting experiences with plasma jet's.

I've done with a friend a replication of the plasma discharge using a 555 trigger:

PROJETO IGNIÇÃO HIDRO-PLASMÁTICA - YouTube

And have also been experiencing with coaxial design sparkplugs.

But I have some doubts about car implementation: I've injected an old chevy 250 straight six engine with injection using Megasquirt, so I have full control for Lambda and ignition advance.

Plasma discharge means better flame propagation, faster burn. So it can produce detonation or engine pinging.When using plasma modified ignitions what would be a conservative curve correction (retard) of ignition advance to start with??? Is it possible to use zero advance???

How affects the engine compression ratio to the capacity to burn lean mixes with plasma ignition??? What's the leaner mix ever burnt with plasma ignition without having engine pinging???

Are available any comparative dyno charts with plasma ignition??? It would be great having A-B-A comparisons (without plasma - after plasma - without plasma).

Regards,
Athal

[Aaron]

plasma ignition

Hi Athal,

Good job on the tests! Thanks for sharing that vid.

Everything on the the table can be replaced with a single CDI or MSD unit off the shelf.

I do not know where you should set your timing but it can be delayed a bit - will just require testing.

I'm also not sure about compression ratio.

The leanest I heard of is 100:1, which was done by Smokey Yunick who tested Robert Krupa's Firestorm plugs, which did produce a form of plasma that is similar.

For dyno tests, Arvind has these for tests he has been running over a period of time for his Eco-ignition company. I'm involved with some projects with him. He also has been working on ignition management systems to dynamically set tuning, fuel ratios, etc... based on on demand needs with the plasma ignition.

I am doing some ongoing tests on a few engines - I may be able to release some of these tests in the near future.

[mnsman]

Thanks Mark,
I am one of 4 that started this forum.


@wojwrobel,
Just about everything in Ignition Secrets is given for free by me >ALREADY<
in the water sparkplug thread. I will sell whatever I want without your
approval. Most people do not want to spend the time to go through countless
posts to sort out what is needed for a basic plasma setup - so I give it to
them in this package from my perspective and using my own work as
examples. From your posts in the past, you like to complain and it doesn't
matter what it is, you spend time finding things to gripe about.

I'd be happy to remove the ads for my books from this forum and turn it
into a paid membership forum. $10 per month for this forum would be a
really good deal and you can have access to all the posts and never have
too look at an ad. It is just common sense that it takes time and money to
run these sites and if you can't appreciate that, go somewhere else.

I'd be willing to pay $10 a month... no problem. A man has to make a living but not by consolidating what he posted freely here when, if done properly, the forum should have already accomplished that. If a device works then sell the device to people unwilling or unable to build it... no problem. But don't sell the ideas that you freely gave only because of a lack of proper consolidation. That fact makes my point that this forum isn't effective because of the lack of concise consolidated information. You have to weed through countless pages of dialog to find anything useful. The forum must really be monitored- no more willy96/his clones and the like. Add an area that has working/tested/replicated circuits and micro controller code for specific needs. It's difficult and time consuming to find anything of any benefit on this forum. Success needs to be confirmed and consolidated for it to be of any use. So far I've seen no benefit for me to post here. In fact, if you wouldn't have mentioned what I have already thought about ($10) I wouldn't have posted another message. For now, no more progress reports from me- it's a waste of my time. If I could I would delete my threads. I thought this forum was about collaboration but it turns out to be more about self promotion. If in fact I ever get lucky, and I mean lucky, I will release all that I know in one dump. Counting on help here has been futile. Disgruntled. Talk to the hand. Gone fishin...

[Aaron]

Plasma Ignition

I thought this forum was about collaboration but it turns out to be more about self promotion. If in fact I ever get lucky, and I mean lucky, I will release all that I know in one dump.

You're entitled to your opinion but most people do not want to pay a monthly fee to have access here - you talk about information freely given away, yet, you're for making people a monthly fee for it.

Threads are rolled out in live "streaming" time as things develop - it is your responsibility to spend your own time to pick out what makes sense to you, what is of value to you, or format it in a way for your own use.

The forum is perfectly serving its purpose of being a place of discussion to share these ideas and share experiments, etc... as they happen - so that anyone else can have access to the information.

If I take information based on MY own postings and format it in a compact and organized manner, my time is valuable to me and I will charge a fee for it. I already gave away a lot of my time not asking for anything in return for posting the original posts anyway and you have full access to it. Nobody is making you buy my books or videos.

It is beyond me why some people think they have a right to judge someone for making an honest living when this entire forum is free to you and everyone else.

I can appreciate the fact that you would be willing to pay a monthly fee, but that only applies to the forum. Even if advertising was removed from here, I'm still going to sell the Ignition Secrets package outside of the forum so charging a monthly fee doesn't accomplish what you think it will - what you want is for me to go on welfare and beg for donations.

If I had a full time job somewhere such as being a real estate agent or whatever and in my "spare" time as a hobby, I compiled these documents or videos, that is a completely different story - but for your information, I walked away from my full time work so I can dedicate myself to this kind of work full time.

And for your information, most of my customers do not even come from Energetic Forum because it is kind of like preaching to the choir. Some members purchase these products for convenience but the fact of the matter is that most internet users simply do NOT use forums, nor do they want to.

There will be a day in the future that people will simply be extremely grateful that they have any access to any of this information whatsoever.

You are gaining benefit from this forum for free, yet you complain that that it doesn't serve its purpose - so why are you here? Please don't answer that - it is a rhetorical question. Anyway, you can go on believing you have a gun to your head forcing you to spend money when I already put it in the forum for free but you are simply prove yourself to not appreciate anything that has been given to you.

[Athal]

Thanks Aaron, you are doing a good job divulgating this technology.

Yes, really the table was nothing than a 250v transformer, a 4 way retifier, a capacitor, a diode array and a 555 trigger circuit. The rest are safety devices and current limitators.

The bench testing is good to test different electronic components. In this setup we have tested 15.000V microwave owen diodes. As you say in your e-book they are not too much good handling amperage, so we have used a 2x2 setup (series and paralel) for the diode array. They performed just fine and have the advantage of using less components, less space under the hood, and easier to replace.

I have found the explanation about how peaking capacitors works interesting, but It would be great to find more info about the behavior of different capacitances in the plasma circuit. Our experience is that bigger caps produce "big bangs" but they not perform well at fast triggering.

I think that the timing retard is the key for economy and engine integrity when using plasma ignitions:

1.- When you use ignition advance the moisture is ignited before TDC. This means that part of the moisture is spent to propagate the front of the flame. By doing this also you are creating pressure in the chamber before TDC. But for generating torque you want the maximum cylinder pressure 10� after TDC.

So if you are able to create an enough strong fast and big discharge you can retard timing beyond is considered "normal" and in theory, use "zero" advance dedicating every single droplet on the moisture to produce torque. But this is only an opinion. Nothing yet tested.

2.- Also when using lean ratios, the risk of knoking is increased, so retarding the advance is a must to preserve engine integrity. The less advance used, the less knocking issues.

Dyno testing is for the engines the same as salt in the food, sugar in the coffee and sex in the city. Here I haven't easy access to Dynos, but in USA there's a dyno shop on almost every corner. I strongly encourage you to spent some hours at the dyno to provide some general guidelines to optimize advance, moisture ratio, and horsepower. This would be a great added value information to update your e-book.

Keep working please and keep us updated.

Best regards,
Athal

Hi Athal,

Good job on the tests! Thanks for sharing that vid.

Everything on the the table can be replaced with a single CDI or MSD unit off the shelf.

I do not know where you should set your timing but it can be delayed a bit - will just require testing.

I'm also not sure about compression ratio.

The leanest I heard of is 100:1, which was done by Smokey Yunick who tested Robert Krupa's Firestorm plugs, which did produce a form of plasma that is similar.

For dyno tests, Arvind has these for tests he has been running over a period of time for his Eco-ignition company. I'm involved with some projects with him. He also has been working on ignition management systems to dynamically set tuning, fuel ratios, etc... based on on demand needs with the plasma ignition.

I am doing some ongoing tests on a few engines - I may be able to release some of these tests in the near future.

[mnsman]

You're entitled to your opinion but most people do not want to pay a monthly fee to have access here - you talk about information freely given away, yet, you're for making people a monthly fee for it.

Not suggesting that I pay for the information. I'm suggesting that I pay for the organization, monitoring and guidance.

If I take information based on MY own postings and format it in a compact and organized manner, my time is valuable to me and I will charge a fee for it. I already gave away a lot of my time not asking for anything in return for posting the original posts anyway and you have full access to it. Nobody is making you buy my books or videos.


It is beyond me why some people think they have a right to judge someone for making an honest living when this entire forum is free to you and everyone else.

As I said a man is entitled to make a living. I don't fault you for that but I think that you should be making a living from the forum for the services I suggested. Your work would have been concisely presented with experiments conducted, conclusions etc. This will make the forum powerful if done properly. For instance if you had a projects area with the ability for users to create a project with sub areas. Mine would be P-motor. Subs: micro controller, driver circuit etc. Non subscribers get limited access.

what you want is for me to go on welfare and beg for donations.

Never. Wouldn't wish that upon anyone.

And for your information, most of my customers do not even come from Energetic Forum because it is kind of like preaching to the choir. Some members purchase these products for convenience but the fact of the matter is that most internet users simply do NOT use forums, nor do they want to.

Put up a products for sale area. Keep it out of the forum.

There will be a day in the future that people will simply be extremely grateful that they have any access to any of this information whatsoever.

I'm grateful for the information but at the same time I see a lot of room for improvement within the entire community. It's called organization. This research is very difficult to do because so much information must be sifted through. It's scattered here and all over the internet. Who knows what to believe sometimes. There is no leadership per se. There is no outside financing. To build a device you have to be a skilled tradesman in about 5 areas. I want some off the shelf stuff. A micro controller with code to run my pulse dc motor. Not too much to ask. Plenty of people have done it. Why should I have to reinvent the wheel? I'm currently looking for a good H-bridge circuit. Why can't I find a good circuit here? Have I missed it? etc. If I have it's because it's not simple... I'm a simple guy.

You are gaining benefit from this forum for free, yet you complain that that it doesn't serve its purpose - so why are you here? Please don't answer that - it is a rhetorical question.

Had an answer but keeping it to myself.

Just thought I'd give my honest opinion because I would pay for the additional service. I realize it would be difficult to sell and even harder to setup. Maybe I'll have a change of heart but for now I'm done here. I set myself up for disappointment and that's what I got. I will continue my work in private. I'm not much of a public person to begin with.

[bogof]

Hi Aaron
I have set up the street fire to run my vehicle which it does very well.When i place the diode from the +primary to the high voltage I lose the spark at the plug.
The vehicle has a negative ground.I know I am doing something wrong but cant quite work out what.
I use a single r-6 for the test.
I would like to add,I dont want a refund even if I cant get this to work the experience i have gained from your book is priceless.Also may i add i am a complete novic where this stuff is concerned.cheers jim

[Aaron]

plasma ignition

Hi Aaron
I have set up the street fire to run my vehicle which it does very well.When i place the diode from the +primary to the high voltage I lose the spark at the plug.
The vehicle has a negative ground.I know I am doing something wrong but cant quite work out what.
I use a single r-6 for the test.
I would like to add,I dont want a refund even if I cant get this to work the experience i have gained from your book is priceless.Also may i add i am a complete novic where this stuff is concerned.cheers jim

Thanks Jim.

Please email me - it is a simple solution.

[Athal]

I do not know where you should set your timing but it can be delayed a bit - will just require testing.

That is an important point.

The fabric configures the advance curve (or map) of an engine to achieve the Minimum Advance for the Best Torque (MABT). So when at their Dyno (steady state) the engine at a given (constant) RPM and vacuum at the manifold, stops providing more torque when more advance is aplyed they go back one or half degree and set this advance as optimum for that RPM and vacuum.

The reason is keep a safety margin to minimize effects of nasty gasoline, cooling system faliures, carbon deposits in the chamber, and other Knock factors.

So if you apply a plasma ignition to an engine (More energy spark, faster and bigger initial propagation front of the flame), you are burning the moisture faster, and this is like advancing some degrees the ignition point for the whole curve (or map). Too much advance will also produce knocking.

In a modern engine you will be safe because of knock sensor: a correction protocol will be started by the ECU when knock is detected retarding the ignition advance degree till knockin stops being heard by the sensor. In this process you will loose HP.

In an old engine (with no knock protection devices) you will be putting your block under high risk, so starting plasma ignition tests with a very conservative (retarded) advance curve (or map), is a must to preserv block integrity.

Also you can measure the performance of a plasma ignition comparing the degrees advance needed to achieve the MABT with the original car ignition. For example: with the car over a steady state dyno, for 3000 RPM and a given vacuum, with the stock ignition you need 35� to arrive to the MABT point. And with the plasma setup on you need only 10� to arrive to the MABT. So you have 25� of advance eficiency over the stock ignition.

What I'm saying is that if someone can demonstrate using science methodes (steady state dyno) that for a given rpm and a intake manifold vacuum, the plasma setup can provide more torque but also doing this with less ignition advance degrees over the sock ignition, then you will have proven the supremacy of the plasma tecnology over the stock ignition.

Just as simple. But we need dyno tests.

Best regards,
Athal

[bogof]

Hi Aaron
I have no idea how to email you but have sent a pm.

[sviesaISaukstybiu]

Aaron,

When bypassing the distributor would the LV go only via the string connected to the sparkplug to which the HV is distributed by the distributor? The LV won't go to all the sparkplugs as all the strings are connected to the same output?

Also, does anyone has any information if Crane Cams HI-6R CDI ignition would work for plasma? I would purchase this just for the reason to get plasma ignition with it, if it won't work I'd be in trouble.

And how important it is for the CDI to have multi-strike ability when used for plasma? In conventional ignition design it is very important for the spark to be available as long as possible to maintain proper burning of the fuel mixtures, especialy lean because it is noticed that not the spark energy but the spark duration is important to form the burning centre. The problem with CDI ignitions is that they provide very short spark (which is not suitable for lean mixtures) that's why the multi-spark option was developed. If plasma is generated via CDI it theoreticaly will have the same spark duration of the CDI. The question is whether the short plasma spark would ignite lean mixtures instantaneously? If not, then multi-strike option is essential. Just how i imagine it. I'm just about to start installing this in a car to see what can be achieved in reality. I will be glad to share results. And would like to see results from other people.

[Aaron]

email

Hi Aaron
I have no idea how to email you but have sent a pm.

You can simply hit reply on any email you recieved from me - newsletter, members list for buyers of ignition secrets, etc... and it is on the contact page of ignition secrets.

[Aaron]

plasma ignition

The LV won't go to all the sparkplugs as all the strings are connected to the same output?

Also, does anyone has any information if Crane Cams HI-6R CDI ignition would work for plasma? I would purchase this just for the reason to get plasma ignition with it, if it won't work I'd be in trouble.

And how important it is for the CDI to have multi-strike ability when used for plasma?

The problem with CDI ignitions is that they provide very short spark (which is not suitable for lean mixtures) that's why the multi-spark option was developed. If plasma is generated via CDI it theoreticaly will have the same spark duration of the CDI.

You do take separate diode strings to each plug. You could have one string then just make connections to each plug boot bypassing the distributor but I think it is just way more rugged to have separate strings. Yes, you can do this as only one cap in a supply is all you need. It is only going to discharge when the HV jumps the gap determined by the ignition timing. So therefore, the LV will only go over 1 plug at a time unless there is some wasted spark ignition but that won't hurt anything.

I don't know anything about that Crane Cam unit - I'm guessing it should work fine. Multiple spark isn't needed, standard cdi is fine.

I have heard from some experts that they cannot get the MSD units to work with my method but it has worked for me 100% of the time. They said the cap is chopped and is not in contact with the primary long enough but from experience, I know that it works for me and I don't know why it didn't for them. The video demos I show are from and MSD - MSD makes the street fire module, it is just their budget module. Anyway, CDI should work fine as I tested it on several standard single discharge CDI's and there were no problems.

CDI is shorter than MSD but you may get a single larger blast in exchange. It may also be advisable to delay the timing a bit - the amount of delay can only be figured out by testing it.

Because of the plasma effect, you can get more power from a leaner mixture even if it is a normal CDI and not MSD. You have to take into consideration you are not igniting a leaner mixture with a spark - you are doing it with a very energy dense plasma discharge that is completely different.

Also, under compression with a air forced into the gap of the plug, the plasma GROWS instead of shrinking down - so consider that in the engine, it is bigger than what it is on a bench test.

Actually the plasma can be a shorter duration than a CDI discharge because the potential in the cap is discharged in a much shorter period of time than normal - you can verify this with a scope. Even though it is a shorter discharge, it isn't the same kind of discharge and it can outperform a cdi or unmodified msd.

Dyno's are nice but can be expensive if you don't have a free hookup.

[mire]

Hi Mark,

You don't need the diode string from the ignition coil secondary output. The
only place you want the diodes are from the capacitor to the plugs.

Seeing that the cap is already connected to the primary of the ignition coil,
by placing a diode string from the coil's primary terminal, you're already
connected to the cap.

I have spoken to someone with experience in plasma ignitions and they
always had problems getting my method to work with MSD's. I don't know
why.

A car uses a timing chain, the distributor tells the coil when to fire. The MSD is a digital system.

it needs the distributor. all these things work together. The msd systems are the best. They work together with the computer.

your system will most likely work best on an old p.o.s. car that has no computer at all. And used leaded fuel.

Spark plugs these days fire a hotter spark, excess heat in a cylinder is damaging to the pistons.

More energy from spark does not = better efficiency. I have car built it with all these things in mind. all the engine components must work together. Especially fuel flow rates, injector size and fuel pressure. The best thing you can do is have a fuel injection nozzle that atomizes the gas into a fine mist. if you want more energy from the same amount of fuel you must add carbon strings to the fuel. If you add heat in the cylinders you get pinging, and thats bad.

A corvette has spacial designed cylinders, and pistons. 13 to 1 compression is unheard of in a street car, so its not the ignition coil that adds power. it is the timing, fuel system, cylinders design, pistons, intake, and tight clearances. Air fuel mixture etc. spark energy is not going to add HP.

Lean is mean, but leads to engine failure. On a hot rod rich is better, more fuel, more compression, higher fuel delivery system. The excess fuel aids in keeping the pistons cool. So all these things work together. you cant have one without the other.

cheers

Good luck on your designs, but they will not work with MSD systems. They depend on the distributor for information form the ignition module.

[Aaron]

NOT an enhanced conventional ignition system

Mire,

You simply need to research what this plasma is and what it does to fuel/air. It is not just some "hotter spark", etc... when you do your research, you will know the reality.

Everyone has to stop comparing this plasma to some enhanced spark ignition because it simply is NOT in the same category.

When you have x joules of potential that will do work over a certain period of time, it is not about adding more "energy". Whether you have a MSD or not is irrelevant. If I convert CDI or MSD to this plasma method, there is still the SAME amount of energy realized - it is just in a much quicker time and theoretically, you can get a megawatt blast at a spark plug if it is quick enough even starting with 1 joule of potential in the CDI or MSD cap. It is very straight forward.

When you get an impulse faster than is supposed to happen with an ignition circuit, you are getting a gain because the impedance of the circuit appears to reduce by x amount and there is a negative resistance effect that allows you to gain more time compression for the impulse.

The fuel/air exposed to this kind of plasma is just simply disassociated in a way that no spark ignition, no cdi or peaking cap or msd will ever do. All of those are nothing but glorified spark ignitions.

Again, research the plasma and you will see that your comparison to enhanced conventional ignition systems is completely unfounded.