Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[conradelektro]

Similar motor-dynamo two years ago

Looking around for Muller Dynamo replications I found a strange video claiming a self-runner with a DC-motor (output from generator coils drives DC motor). There are only coils on one side of the disk carrying the magnets. The speaker claims the coils are taken from relays.

YouTube - Mini alternator energy - neogen

YouTube - Rod5157's Channel

Web site from the builder: I build what you can only Imagine (He needs a job. It seems to be difficult to become rich from a self-runner.)

I do not know anything about it, all attempts to find the details promised in the video failed.

Greetings, Conrad

[Turion]

See the following two videos regarding magnetic attraction

Fuel-Efficient-Vehicles.org » A Few Magnet Motors

and the following YouTube videos
YouTube - Xpenzif free energy screw magnet motor
YouTube - Free Energy Magnet Motor

As Matt would say:
Simple is Better

David Bowling

[Lidmotor]

My little Muller running with all the coils now

@All
I installed all the coils an my Muller today and started doing some preliminary load testing on the generator part. I decided to just install the coils as air cored at this point to get a feel for what is going on.
Here it is running on two AAs and loading up a cap. I may do the Hall circuit next and see how that works. Right now I am still running on a reed switch. I am not seeing anything (yet) that is very unusual but my setup is so far off from Romero's that it doesn't mean anything. I am still learning how the thing works.

YouTube - my Muller Dynamo with all the coils.ASF

Cheers,

Lidmotor

[conradelektro]

How to control a pulse motor

@All
I installed all the coils an my Muller today and started doing some preliminary load testing on the generator part. I decided to just install the coils as air cored at this point to get a feel for what is going on.
Here it is running on two AAs and loading up a cap. I may do the Hall circuit next and see how that works. Right now I am still running on a reed switch.
Cheers, Lidmotor

@Lidmotor:

I did some tests with a pulse motor (the two toroids in the photo would be your two drive coils) and found that the power consumption depends very much on the timing. The power to the drive coils (or toroids) has to be switched on for a very narrow and precise angle (a few degrees, just when the magnet is in a certain position in front of the coils).

The best way I came up with is to use two optical gap sensors which can be positioned at various angles to find the "optimal power on angle". Unfortunately, the optical gap sensors need about 10 mA each. So, I have not really found a good solution yet.

A reed switch or a hall sensor are no good because the "power on angle" can not be defined precisely enough (in order to conserve power).

A hall sensor in combination with a one shot multi-vibrator could work in case the motor runs at a certain speed (which defines the switch on time).

All I want to say: power consumption of a pulse motor can be very low once the "switch on time" is adjusted precisely (the optimal switch on time is rather short or said differently, power should only be switched on for a well defined small angle, only a few degrees).

Greetings, Conrad

[toranarod]

@Lidmotor:

I did some tests with a pulse motor (the two toroids in the photo would be your two drive coils) and found that the power consumption depends very much on the timing. The power to the drive coils (or toroids) has to be switched on for a very narrow and precise angle (a few degrees, just when the magnet is in a certain position in front of the coils).

The best way I came up with is to use two optical gap sensors which can be positioned at various angles to find the "optimal power on angle". Unfortunately, the optical gap sensors need about 10 mA each. So, I have not really found a good solution yet.

A reed switch or a hall sensor are no good because the "power on angle" can not be defined precisely enough (in order to conserve power).

A hall sensor in combination with a one shot multi-vibrator could work in case the motor runs at a certain speed (which defines the switch on time).

All I want to say: power consumption of a pulse motor can be very low once the "switch on time" is adjusted precisely (the optimal switch on time is rather short or said differently, power should only be switched on for a well defined small angle, only a few degrees).

Greetings, Conrad

As with all pulse motor design timing is every thing.
do you have a CRO?
you need to be inside the sine wave as in the photo.

the on time of the coil in this Photo is 1.5 msec

[conradelektro]

Angle versus time

@toranarod:

Yes, I have a USB-DSO and I could do a good timing with the two optical gap sensors.

The angle is independent of the motor speed, but if you use a fixed pulse length (e.g. with a one shot multi-vibrator like the CD4047BC "Low Power Monostable/Astable Multivibrator") the motor speed becomes a factor. The faster the motor turns, the shorter the pulse width (the "on time") has to become.

We have to think about a nice (low power) control arrangement. I will try two hall sensors instead of the two optical gap sensors (one hall sensor switches on and the other one positioned shortly after the first one switches off, just as the two optical gap sensors do). Hall sensors need less power than optical gap sensors. Also the D-Flip-Flop uses little power (see the circuit in my last post).

In short: one has to switch on according to a precise angle (of a few degrees) in order to make it work for all motor speeds.

Greetings, Conrad

[marxist]

coil to coil routing

Hi,
thanks to all of you for reporting your findings.

I'm wondering whether it would make sense, to route the output signal of one generator coil (A) directly into another coil (B) thus making B a driving coil.

Obviously this only has a chance of working, if B is located at the appropriate angle to an oncoming magnet, when the signal from A arrives.
So once one has chosen a coil A, one would have to try all others 'to find the right partner'.
The one where the rig speeds up would be the right one.

No, romeroUK didn't do that, so the suggestion is kind of off topic. I wanted to mention it nevertheless.

[toranarod]

@toranarod:

Yes, I have a USB-DSO and I could do a good timing with the two optical gap sensors.

The angle is independent of the motor speed, but if you use a fixed pulse length (e.g. with a one shot multi-vibrator like the CD4047BC "Low Power Monostable/Astable Multivibrator") the motor speed becomes a factor. The faster the motor turns, the shorter the pulse width (the "on time") has to become.

We have to think about a nice (low power) control arrangement. I will try two hall sensors instead of the two optical gap sensors (one hall sensor switches on and the other one positioned shortly after the first one switches off, just as the two optical gap sensors do). Hall sensors need less power than optical gap sensors. Also the D-Flip-Flop uses little power (see the circuit in my last post).

In short: one has to switch on according to a precise angle (of a few degrees) in order to make it work for all motor speeds.

Greetings, Conrad

Yes you are right. looks like we have noticed the same effect.
I have suggested. If a very successful OU motor is ever developed.
an Auto motive ECU will be used to control it The similarities between the timing of the internal combustion engine and a pulse motor are the same.

Not only does the pulse width change but when the Pulse is delivered also changes. it will need to be retarded or advanced.

I have tried a Wolf3D ecu from a performance can to control a Bedini pulse motor with very positive results.

[majescott]

I did think about that too, and you could use ust simple Wood to Drill a Thread on it. To lock it, you can use another Piece of Plastic with a Thread.

Making your own with plastic coat hangers work well too.

[conradelektro]

I'm wondering whether it would make sense, to route the output signal of one generator coil (A) directly into another coil (B) thus making B a driving coil.

Obviously this only has a chance of working, if B is located at the appropriate angle to an oncoming magnet, when the signal from A arrives.
So once one has chosen a coil A, one would have to try all others 'to find the right partner'.
The one where the rig speeds up would be the right one.

@marxist:

I like this idea a lot because it would be a simple low loss arrangement. May be it also needs a rectifier, electrolytic capacitor and a resistance to adjust timing.

The rectifier could be avoided by carefully connecting the coils in the right way (depends on how they are wound).

Greetings, Conrad

[conradelektro]

Microprocessor control

I have suggested. If a very successful OU motor is ever developed.
an Auto motive ECU will be used to control it The similarities between the timing of the internal combustion engine and a pulse motor are the same.

Not only does the pulse width change but when the Pulse is delivered also changes. it will need to be retarded or advanced.

I have tried a Wolf3D ecu from a performance can to control a Bedini pulse motor with very positive results.

@toranarod:

I have a few of these LaunchPad development systems from TI MSP430 LaunchPad (MSP-EXP430G2) - Texas Instruments Embedded Processors Wiki which could be used.

This type of microprocessor uses very little power (less than 1 mA at 2.5 Volt and 1 MHz) and one can implement very complicated control tasks. The "development part" can be disabled by removing jumpers and with a price of $5.-- the whole board can stay in the motor set up (allowing for practical and easy reprogramming).

The problem is again, which sensors to use? May be two hall sensors or pick up coils (which need transistors to amplify the signal to logic level)?

As you say, the control task is considerable and has to be solved by low power means.

Greetings, Conrad

[Lidmotor]

Romerouk Muller basics

I am still to trying to understand how Romero's Muller might have been for real. Why in it's basic design it differed from all the other pulse motors that I have studdied and might have done the impossible.
It was mentioned earlier that getting the required voltage out of the small genertator coils might be a problem for replicators. I saw that problem yesterday on my "learning tool".
Fausto on the OU forum addressed that issue and made an excellent video. In the video he also showed how the magnet biasing of the coils helps with the cogging issue.

YouTube - Muller / Romero Experiments - Part 1

I agree with all of you that the timing and duration of the input pulse has to be spot on right for this thing to work.

Lidmotor

[nvisser]

That video does explain the cogging effect real good.
It is easy to genrate 12V with a coil with such a lot of turns. The problem comes in that the coil is 156 Ohms. So the power generated is only about 1W.
P=V^2/R= 12 X 12 / 156.
Romerouk's coils only had 300 turns litz wire and will probably be much lower in resistance and it will not be easy to get 12v o/p. But then again he used 2 coils in series at a time.
Here are some points of interest I got from Romerouk's posts.

Setup works with the driving coils in attraction to the magnets
If anyone is trying to replicate this please remember to do the testing with the load on and compensate the drag with the magnets on top of the coils
Use any number of magnets but make sure that at anyone time you have a magnet in position to compensate the drag created by the coil.
Use a motor to drive the rotor and make sure you start testing with a load connected then adjust the magnet up and down to eliminate the drag as much is possible and get best output.
Without the magnets on top the self running will not be possible
People replicating this should double all my details, bigger coils, magnets and most important a heavy rotor with even number of magnets on it and uneven number of coils
Make sure that spacing between the coils or between the magnets on the rotor is equally spaced.
The distance between the coils and the rotor must be adjusted depending on the magnets used, core... Too close is not necessary good


Running without the converter almost killed this generator melting the coils.... Must have something to keep the output stable.

In this setup all magnets are the same orientation.
Yes, those extra diodes on top will add almost 2 volts to the total output and that is a lot. Proper rectifiers might work better but as usual, I used what I had already.
Multistrand made of 7 wires totaling 0.8mm or 0.82mm
Ultra important is to have the magnets spaced equally and the coils too. Failing in this arrangement will cause system not to work properly
The 'helper magnet' is separated from the coil by the thickness of the acrylic (1cm).On the acrylic is glued a 1mm/20mm washer then the magnet on top.
I am driving in attraction mode. I have started the project in repulsion then tried attraction. I get much better torque in attraction.
Small things can make a huge difference, like my extra diodes on top of the rectifier. The gap from the rotor to the coil I had it increased and decreased hundreds of times to get it right
Sorry, diameter is 25cm and distance from the rotor to the coils is about 3.5-4mm.
The 2 driver coils are using multistrand from crt monitor deflection coils,
The 2 driving coils are running independently, not activating at the same time that is what I need, to have the second coil activating when the other one is completely off
Something I discovered yesterday is that if I lift the magnet on top of the coil just a little bit then the output is increased. That shows me that I need to take every magnet and check, lifting up and down and add some spacers if required
A DC/DC Converter is a must.

[toranarod]

That video does explain the cogging effect real good.
It is easy to genrate 12V with a coil with such a lot of turns. The problem comes in that the coil is 156 Ohms. So the power generated is only about 1W.
P=V^2/R= 12 X 12 / 156.
Romerouk's coils only had 300 turns litz wire and will probably be much lower in resistance and it will not be easy to get 12v o/p. But then again he used 2 coils in series at a time.
Here are some points of interest I got from Romerouk's posts.

Setup works with the driving coils in attraction to the magnets
If anyone is trying to replicate this please remember to do the testing with the load on and compensate the drag with the magnets on top of the coils
Use any number of magnets but make sure that at anyone time you have a magnet in position to compensate the drag created by the coil.
Use a motor to drive the rotor and make sure you start testing with a load connected then adjust the magnet up and down to eliminate the drag as much is possible and get best output.
Without the magnets on top the self running will not be possible
People replicating this should double all my details, bigger coils, magnets and most important a heavy rotor with even number of magnets on it and uneven number of coils
Make sure that spacing between the coils or between the magnets on the rotor is equally spaced.
The distance between the coils and the rotor must be adjusted depending on the magnets used, core... Too close is not necessary good


Running without the converter almost killed this generator melting the coils.... Must have something to keep the output stable.

In this setup all magnets are the same orientation.
Yes, those extra diodes on top will add almost 2 volts to the total output and that is a lot. Proper rectifiers might work better but as usual, I used what I had already.
Multistrand made of 7 wires totaling 0.8mm or 0.82mm
Ultra important is to have the magnets spaced equally and the coils too. Failing in this arrangement will cause system not to work properly
The 'helper magnet' is separated from the coil by the thickness of the acrylic (1cm).On the acrylic is glued a 1mm/20mm washer then the magnet on top.
I am driving in attraction mode. I have started the project in repulsion then tried attraction. I get much better torque in attraction.
Small things can make a huge difference, like my extra diodes on top of the rectifier. The gap from the rotor to the coil I had it increased and decreased hundreds of times to get it right
Sorry, diameter is 25cm and distance from the rotor to the coils is about 3.5-4mm.
The 2 driver coils are using multistrand from crt monitor deflection coils,
The 2 driving coils are running independently, not activating at the same time that is what I need, to have the second coil activating when the other one is completely off
Something I discovered yesterday is that if I lift the magnet on top of the coil just a little bit then the output is increased. That shows me that I need to take every magnet and check, lifting up and down and add some spacers if required
A DC/DC Converter is a must.

My early test so far with one of Romerouk coils is 4v 0/P thats the best I can get out of it. Two in series maybe 8. this why he said a DC to DC converter is a must. I think?

My 18 coils arrive today

[Web000x]

Running without the converter almost killed this generator melting the coils.... Must have something to keep the output stable.

Toranarod,

I doubt he would be using a voltage step up converter if he was trying to prevent it from burning up the coils. It would only make sense that he was trying to limit power flow hence the reason that in the video he kept putting his hand on the converter to see if it was hot.

I don't think I'll be adding to your rotor machining order. My sister might be able to get me access to her company's Machine shop. Thanks anyway.

Dave