Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

@All

Has anyone ever tired rolling a core, instead of using straight laminates?
Metglass nanocrystalline tape for MEG generator | eBay

The straight laminates may be good when you are driving with AC the primary of a transformer. The AC produces coil initiation that alternates from both sides of the laminates at once.

But with a magnet passing a core, only that one side of the core will ever be initiated and with straight laminates, the dead ends cannot be initiated from both ends so you have one end of the laminate that is initiated and one end that is not.

So maybe by using a rolled core that is one laminate rolled at least all parts of the core will be initiated from first contact of the magnet field right through the complete passage. It is kind of hard to explain but it has to do with power dissipation in the core transferring to the coil. With straight laminates, you can only dissipate backwards to a dead end. With the rolled core you can dissipate right away to the rest of the core as soon as any part of it is hit by the magnet.

@mariuscivic



In your video I would like to know if you can try something very easy.

Regarding the magnet and coil you had in your hand, can you remove the magnet and connect the coil is series with the drive coil but not on the pulsed side. The connected coil should not be near the wheel. Simply placed on the table and connected in series with the drive coil.

You can try other coils (even transformer primary or secondary) in that same position and see if you notice any difference in wheel rotation without the gen coils or even with the gen coils.

I would be very interested to learn of what this effect will do. Also, I have a list of comprehensive drive coils tests if anyone that has a dual drive coil pair and is interested.

Maybe one last thing. You showed the gen coil with a transformer and a bulb being lit. This shows that cascading coils is more then possible. If you took a simple coil like your drive coil and connected it to the gen coil, then you can place that second coil as a drive coil and find the best angle to see if it will help more in rotation.

I am in the process of planning my own wheel and of course am relying on present builders results to plan for as many variables as possible.

wattsup

PS:Keep up the good works guys. I love it.

would a rolled MU metal core do for a test? i have a small amount of MU metal
that is fine like paper. would that do?

[wattsup]

would a rolled MU metal core do for a test? i have a small amount of MU metal
that is fine like paper. would that do?

Well the one I am showing is Metglass but even Mu metal should be good for testing a rolled core. You see any type of magnet against a coil is working with one arm tied behind its back. It only has one side of the core to attack. Yes the Magnet can attack from both polarities onto two coils but it does not change the fact that each core is hit only on one side. Thus looking for ways to disperse the energy throughout the core as quickly and as strong as possible is a main requirement. A rolled core may help since everything happening anywhere will happen everywhere.

If anyone wants to do a test to see the maximum energy their cores can transfer with any core having two winds, all you need is that and an AC rheostat. Just connect the coil, rheostat in series to a mains supply that will give you 110VAC but that you can bring down to 25vac. Then place a load on the other coil and measure the output. Play with the rheostat to see how high you can go without burning the coil. This will give you the maximum throughput of your coil/core under ideal conditions where the core is being initiated from both ends. Be careful to not get a shock when on the mains.

wattsup

Added: The test may be better for you if you use a step down ac transformer, then the rheostat to the coil. I realize the above may be to strong for the type of coils on a wheel. The point here is that any coil that you plan on making 18 copies should be tested first for their maximum output potential. This is why you are making them right. For their maximum output potential, I do not mean when on a wheel, I mean under maximum conditions, how much juice can this juicer produce. If the number is low, hmmmmm, maybe look again. You can simulate it how you want, you need to know this about that one coil before you make 17 more. Once you know this, it may guide the way you run the wheel.

[toranarod]

I took some data yesterday of a basic setup. I will use that.

I recorded a speed of 4728 RPM and some lenz drag efficacy was present at that velocity.

At 4728 RPM and a rotor diameter of 200 millimeters. We have a surface tip speed. of 178 Kmh. this then calculates to 49511 mm a second. the Magnets are closer in but for now leave it at that.

My hole coil had a Diameter of 50mm. How long did it take for the coil to pass the magnet? There are other factors here to, how far is it before it's out of range of the magnetic fields effect.

pass speed 1.01 milliseconds do we agree?

If you get different figures Please correct me.

using the LR time constant L= 3.94mH / 1.32 Ohm = 2.98 milliseconds to 63%
magnetic field.

this seem to be right because there was a reduction of Lenz at this RPM

Now what about the core?

[toranarod]

Well the one I am showing is Metglass but even Mu metal should be good for testing a rolled core. You see any type of magnet against a coil is working with one arm tied behind its back. It only has one side of the core to attack. Yes the Magnet can attack from both polarities onto two coils but it does not change the fact that each core is hit only on one side. Thus looking for ways to disperse the energy throughout the core as quickly and as strong as possible is a main requirement. A rolled core may help since everything happening anywhere will happen everywhere.

If anyone wants to do a test to see the maximum energy their cores can transfer with any core having two winds, all you need is that and an AC rheostat. Just connect the coil, rheostat in series to a mains supply that will give you 110VAC but that you can bring down to 25vac. Then place a load on the other coil and measure the output. Play with the rheostat to see how high you can go without burning the coil. This will give you the maximum throughput of your coil/core under ideal conditions where the core is being initiated from both ends. Be careful to not get a shock when on the mains.

wattsup

Added: The test may be better for you if you use a step down ac transformer, then the rheostat to the coil. I realize the above may be to strong for the type of coils on a wheel. The point here is that any coil that you plan on making 18 copies should be tested first for their maximum output potential. This is why you are making them right. For their maximum output potential, I do not mean when on a wheel, I mean under maximum conditions, how much juice can this juicer produce. If the number is low, hmmmmm, maybe look again. You can simulate it how you want, you need to know this about that one coil before you make 17 more. Once you know this, it may guide the way you run the wheel.

sounds like fun I have a a variac transformer. just in Austrlia we have 240 volts LOL That's ok. I get it the experiment. See if i can roll up the MU tight enough.

[elias]

Another part of the equation

@Everyone

I think that I found out another secret to this machine.

The first secret is to take advantage of the time lag of current inside the coil.
The second secret is to take advantage of the time lag of the voltage rising on the charging capacitor.

The generator voltage on the coils is perfect for charging capacitors, because it rises like a sine slope. See this paper: http://www.overunity.de/index.php?ac...downfile&id=70, There is a time delay for a capactor to charge namely R*C, if you respect that slope, then you have charged your capacitor with minimum current, if you try to charge the capacitor faster than that rate you will only use up current as wasted energy. It is that simple.

The best design would be to choose a capacitor that can be charged faster than the rise of the sine wave. Lets see if Romeros design fits this analogy:

The resistance of one coil ~ 0.7 ohms
The total resistance ~ 0.7*2/7 = 0.2 ohms
The capacitor ~ 47000 uF

time delay for charging the capacitor = RC = 47000 * 0.2 = 9.4 msec

One RC is the time that is required for the voltage to rise up to about 60%.

Now Romero has 8 magnets on his rotor, each magnet passes the coil at about 6.25 msec, So as you can see the capacitor can charge with 1 or 2 magnets passing by, also it takes advantage of the coil time lag, because charging a capacitor with low voltage is approximately like shorting the coils.

I think that the DC-DC converter acts like a pulsing mechanism for the cap. Normally DC- DC converters operate by a buck-boost method, in which an inductor is pulsed, to raise the voltage level.

With these concepts in mind, it is becoming obvious how this device operates.

Elias

EDIT: Found a perfect analogy for this: consider that you are watching a youtube video that is loading slower than the rate of the video, then you will encounter resistance, and waste of time and choppy video, but If the video loads faster than the rate of it, then you can watch it smoothly, without any "resistance".
That is exactly how we should charge capacitors, we must respect the rate at which it wants to charge, then it will charge with no current. If we charge it too fast we will waste energy, and if we charge too slow, we do not use the full potential of the system.

[toranarod]

@Everyone

I think that I found out another secret to this machine.

The first secret is to take advantage of the time lag of current inside the coil.
The second secret is to take advantage of the time lag of the voltage rising on the charging capacitor.

The generator voltage on the coils is perfect for charging capacitors, because it rises like a sine slope. See this paper: http://www.overunity.de/index.php?ac...downfile&id=70, There is a time delay for a capactor to charge namely R*C, if you respect that slope, then you have charged your capacitor with minimum current, if you try to charge the capacitor faster than that rate you will only use up current as wasted energy. It is that simple.

The best design would be to choose a capacitor that can be charged faster than the rise of the sine wave. Lets see if Romeros design fits this analogy:

The resistance of one coil ~ 0.7 ohms
The total resistance ~ 0.7*2/7 = 0.2 ohms
The capacitor ~ 47000 uF

time delay for charging the capacitor = RC = 47000 * 0.2 = 9.4 msec

One RC is the time that is required for the voltage to rise up to about 60%.

Now Romero has 8 magnets on his rotor, each magnet passes the coil at about 6.25 msec, So as you can see the capacitor can charge with 1 or 2 magnets passing by, also it takes advantage of the coil time lag, because charging a capacitor with low voltage is approximately like shorting the coils.

I think that the DC-DC converter acts like a pulsing mechanism for the cap. Normally DC- DC converters operate by a buck-boost method, in which an inductor is pulsed, to raise the voltage level.

With these concepts in mind, it is becoming obvious how this device operates.

Elias

Hello Elias

at one point the coil and the cap will be 180 out of Phase. maybe that will be the time to extract the energy for the system loop.
just a thought. If its important to keep the resistance low. in this case the the XC impedance .

[elias]

Hello Elias

at one point the coil and the cap will be 180 out of Phase. maybe that will be the time to extract the energy for the system loop.
just a thought. If its important to keep the resistance low. in this case the the XC impedance .

Rodney

As I understand the XC impedance is accounted for only in AC systems, if you place your capacitor after the diode then you don't have AC to deal with. You are charging your capacitor to use the energy stored in it. But to charge a capacitor, you will notice that if you charge it faster than it wants to charge, then you will lose energy and current, but if you charge it as fast as it wants to charge you lose no energy, and your capacitor charges up with almost non-existent drag. A discharged capacitor has almost zero impedance, and as it charges up it gains impedance, but its impedance is relative to the input voltage, if the input voltage is always slightly lower than the capacitor voltage the rotor will not see the capacitor charge it up.

Also when a cap is in discharged state the coil sees it as a short when charging it up, therefore, not much drag is induced to the rotor at this phase also. The point is to have a charge/discharge cycle for the cap, and not use the energy directly, as this will close the loop and make the system kill itself, but by using a DC-DC converter romero actually broke the loop and allowed the charge, discharge cycle to take place at the capacitor, allowing it to be charged without much drag.

I think that the DC-DC converter is an important part of Romeros device, and it must use the energy of the capacitor in pulses, so that it allows the cap to be charged/discharged in intervals. Note that the charge/discharge frequency of the cap is about 110Hz in Romeros device. I think that the frequency of the DC-DC converter must be in sync with the charge/discharge/cycle of the capacitor to achieve optimum efficiency.

I am going to test out some configs, will share the results.

Elias

EDIT: This is the type of circuit I am talking about:


I will use a proper capacitor instead of the collector which charges as fast as a magnet passes the coil, and the voltage source of the generator coils as V+ and a hall effect switch instead of the square wave generator that opens the charge cycle when the magnet passes by and closes it when the get passed the coil. Of course, the first Mosfet can be eliminated.

[qvision]

Wow i'm loving that washing machine !

@ Kaj,

definitely make another core, don't worry about 70/30, i know one guy who has done this succesfully and he put as much magnetite in with the resin as he could without it becoming unworkable, but it was like a very, very stiff putty. I contacted him on youtube and he's helpful, he is 'codygillespie' in these search results, but there are a few interesting videos here :

magnetite core - Google Search


QV.

[toranarod]

Rodney

As I understand the XC impedance is accounted for only in AC systems, if you place your capacitor after the diode then you don't have AC to deal with. You are charging your capacitor to use the energy stored in it. But to charge a capacitor, you will notice that if you charge it faster than it wants to charge, then you will lose energy and current, but if you charge it as fast as it wants to charge you lose no energy, and your capacitor charges up with almost non-existent drag. A discharged capacitor has almost zero impedance, and as it charges up it gains impedance, but its impedance is relative to the input voltage, if the input voltage is always slightly lower than the capacitor voltage the rotor will not see the capacitor charge it up.

Also when a cap is in discharged state the coil sees it as a short when charging it up, therefore, not much drag is induced to the rotor at this phase also. The point is to have a charge/discharge cycle for the cap, and not use the energy directly, as this will close the loop and make the system kill itself, but by using a DC-DC converter romero actually broke the loop and allowed the charge, discharge cycle to take place at the capacitor, allowing it to be charged without much drag.

I think that the DC-DC converter is an important part of Romeros device, and it must use the energy of the capacitor in pulses, so that it allows the cap to be charged/discharged in intervals. Note that the charge/discharge frequency of the cap is about 110Hz in Romeros device. I think that the frequency of the DC-DC converter must be in sync with the charge/discharge/cycle of the capacitor to achieve optimum efficiency.

I am going to test out some configs, will share the results.

Elias

EDIT: This is the type of circuit I am talking about:


I will use a proper capacitor instead of the collector which charges as fast as a magnet passes the coil, and the voltage source of the generator coils as V+ and a hall effect switch instead of the square wave generator that opens the charge cycle when the magnet passes by and closes it when the get passed the coil. Of course, the first Mosfet can be eliminated.

Hello Elias,
Please view this as just a friendly discussion about electronics. This is more a concept from my mind’s eye rather than text book electrical theory. You are absolutely correct …XC is an abbreviation for capacitive reactance, expressed as ohms; and XL is inductive reactance expressed in ohms; and as such can be applied to Ohms Law to determine current flow in through a circuit.
For me…the only difference between AC & DC current is the time it takes to switch from one polarity to the other. I don’t see any difference in the two if you are looking at a fixed point in time. At one exact point in time when your coil is charging your capacitor both components (capacitor and coil) will have the same resistance, determined by time and their inductive and capacitive values. XC & XL will be equal.
These values can be measured or calculated and XL and XC can also be treated as a voltage divider, as with any two resisters of equal value in series across the power supply, the voltage between the two resistors, completely irrelevant of the current flowing in the circuit, the voltage at the midpoint will be exactly half the supply.
When your inductor and your capacitor perform the same function as those two resistors, XC will be equal to XL, even in a DC circuit at a specific point in time this condition will occur.
I propose tuning the DC to DC converter to maintain the equilibrium of XC & XL to hold the load on the generator at that point in time. This is just an idea that I had after reading your post about Romero’s capacitor.
It will require some control circuitry to achieve this condition in the circuit but it could prove to be an interesting experiment…or I could be completely wrong and it won’t work at all. Recently, many people have been posting discussion topics about the use of a capacitor to achieve some sort of resonant condition within the generator to improve the efficiency.
The trick will be to keep the capacitor as the load on the generator coil, to keep the capacitor constantly discharging so the generator is supplying current to a reactive device not a resistive device, making an attempt to keep current and voltage out of phase, as many degrees as possible.
This is just a hunch that I have come up with today, based on a few discussions posted in this thread.

good work. we will get this going very soon many hands make lite work.

[Farmhand]

I have found some similarities with other systems. This time about the conection about Faraday homopolar generator and Muller dynamo.

About the power generator coil, it's a little similar to Faraday. In faraday generator (modifications have proven to produce COP>1) a copper disk is speeded up and you need to submerge the disk into a magnetic field. Then, you can measure DC, one polarity is in the rotating axis and the other is in the circumference of the metallic disc.

The difference is in Muller you get the energy directly from the magnet (not from the axis-disc) and you have a coil in the magnet also (in faraday you don't need a coil in the magnet).



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It's well know that there are different transformers where you can use only 1 time-varying electric field in the primary and you get 2 wires in the secondary, other option is to use 2 wires in the primary and instead of using 2 wires in the secondary, you can use a capacitor, or other techniques to get the output.

Along similar line's, capacitor plates in magnetic fields might also work somehow, not sure how they would be connected to be used/discharged if they are on the rotor, maybe if the rotor had electromagnets with DC Stator field magnets, but that's a whole different ball game. Maybe it could still work if there is residual or delayed magnetic fields in a pulse motor.

The capacitor plates might work like the farday disc, but there needs to be a fairly strong magnetic field present for the plates to cut or intersect or "be in" I imagine. So it might not work at all in a regular pulse motor. Who knows. If it did faster rotor would be better I would guess.

Anyway, I'll mention it now but feel free to consider it later.
This is Don Smiths dipole transformer generator.


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And some text for Dons device.


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And a very rough drawing of how I would like to try it. With four plates top and bottom, eight all up.


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OK now I just need a spinning rotor. Not easy for me to organise, it's a long way to the shop.

Cheers

P.S Thanks for the drawing mariuscivic.

[mariuscivic]

Hi guys!
I found an usefull thing (maybe you did too so if you did please ignore this)
Every time i connect i diferent load to the same gen coil, i have to adjust the position of the hall sensor for best output under load

Also I have done what WATTSUP suggested me and couldn't find anything interesting

[qvision]

What did wattsup suggest to you ?

[mariuscivic]

What did wattsup suggest to you ?

He suggested this:
''Regarding the magnet and coil you had in your hand, can you remove the magnet and connect the coil is series with the drive coil but not on the pulsed side. The connected coil should not be near the wheel. Simply placed on the table and connected in series with the drive coil.

You can try other coils (even transformer primary or secondary) in that same position and see if you notice any difference in wheel rotation without the gen coils or even with the gen coils.

I would be very interested to learn of what this effect will do. Also, I have a list of comprehensive drive coils tests if anyone that has a dual drive coil pair and is interested.

Maybe one last thing. You showed the gen coil with a transformer and a bulb being lit. This shows that cascading coils is more then possible. If you took a simple coil like your drive coil and connected it to the gen coil, then you can place that second coil as a drive coil and find the best angle to see if it will help more in rotation.''

couldn't find anything interesting

[Farmhand]

Maybe wattsup was hinting at this type of arrangement. There should be a transistor switch in the negative line, I forgot to draw it.


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This type of thing can increase the current through a coil at almost any frequency up to a point I guess. The de-Q-ing diode prevents energy returning to the source. If it's left out it can still work.

I would guess at the optimum frequency it would really take off.

There would be formulae for determining the values for the desired effect.
Current will inrease with power though. As far as I can tell.

[kajunkreations]

Wow i'm loving that washing machine !

@ Kaj,

definitely make another core, don't worry about 70/30, i know one guy who has done this succesfully and he put as much magnetite in with the resin as he could without it becoming unworkable, but it was like a very, very stiff putty. I contacted him on youtube and he's helpful, he is 'codygillespie' in these search results, but there are a few interesting videos here :

magnetite core - Google Search


QV.

Hey QV, thanks, I have seen both of his video's. In the first one, he mixes a pour able consistancy that the magnet wouldnt attract to. In the second video he packs the magnetite in really tight with almost no resin, and the magnet did attract to that one.
My paste was similar to his second vid. with just a little more resin. A magnet is very attracted to my core no matter where you put it against the core, but if you put the magnet at one end you get no magnetic pull on the other end like a piece of iron would do. But this may be normal for this type of core.
I will be making a few different ones today, Ive been looking at the field with some magetite in a cup with magnets on each side. It also seems like there needs to be some space between the core mold and the shaping magnets.

Thanks,
Nolan