Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[marxist]

biasing field equalizing rotor field

Thanks for the new video, Lidmotor.

..... may be the biasing is the key for making such small coil produce more voltage. ....

Hello plengo and all,
I want to propose a follow-up experiment to the one shown by plengo in his video.

Maybe someone can try mounting a pick-up coil at a fixed position from the rotor (instead of holding it in your hand).
Now, with a load and scope-probe attached to the coil - as done by plengo in his experiment - take the biasing magnet in your hand and slowly bring it nearer the coil. (It will be difficult to do, as the magnet gets sucked towards the core of the coil. Maybe you will have to use some kind of spacers of different thickness to prevent direct contact)

I wonder, if the maximum output voltage is achieved with the biasing-magnet in close proximity to the coil (= directly stuck to the coil's core) or with the biasing-magnet distanced from the core?

romeroUK had the coil and the biasing-magnet distanced from each other.
Maybe we can see that the output voltage will rise, if the biasing-magnet and the coil's core are not directly touching.

Maybe the stronger the biasing magnet, the further it needs to be distanced from the coil's core.

With the biasing magnet being oriented in opposition to the rotor-magnet, there will be a point somewhere between the two, where both magnetic fields have equal strength.
Maybe the field or wave coming from the approaching rotor-magnet must be counterbalanced by the biasing magnet to the effect that both fields are equal within the coil's core. To shift this location of equal field strength to the right place in the coil, the biasing magnet would need to be at the right distance from the coil's core.

[redrichie]

Great thinking marxist. Does anyone know about the materials used in the ferrite. Will just any do or would I be looking for a specific type of ferrite. If anyone has a line on a place to get the ferrite please post. Would hate to order inferior ferrite.

[Neight]

Thanks for the new video, Lidmotor.

Hello plengo and all,
I want to propose a follow-up experiment to the one shown by plengo in his video.

Maybe someone can try mounting a pick-up coil at a fixed position from the rotor (instead of holding it in your hand).
Now, with a load and scope-probe attached to the coil - as done by plengo in his experiment - take the biasing magnet in your hand and slowly bring it nearer the coil. (It will be difficult to do, as the magnet gets sucked towards the core of the coil. Maybe you will have to use some kind of spacers of different thickness to prevent direct contact)

I wonder, if the maximum output voltage is achieved with the biasing-magnet in close proximity to the coil (= directly stuck to the coil's core) or with the biasing-magnet distanced from the core?

romeroUK had the coil and the biasing-magnet distanced from each other.
Maybe we can see that the output voltage will rise, if the biasing-magnet and the coil's core are not directly touching.

Maybe the stronger the biasing magnet, the further it needs to be distanced from the coil's core.

Maybe the field or wave coming from the approaching rotor-magnet must be counterbalanced by the biasing magnet to the effect that both fields are equal within the coil's core. To shift this location of equal field strength to the right place in the coil, the biasing magnet would need to be at the right distance from the coil's core.

Ok, this will not likely be a definitive answer, but i am trying to help where i can. after following this post, i decided to try and put a biasing magnet on the end of the bifiler coil that drives the SSG. I noticed that one way made the motor get much louder, and the other nearly cancelled all the noise from it. just out of curiosity after i read your post, i tried to space the magnet from the core with non magnetic washers. as you get closer, there is a difference in sound, though the biggest difference by far was when there is only one washer between the core/magnet, or if the magnet is directly on the core. i know this is not the same thing, but at least its something i can throw in
I am putting together a quickie generator coil to play with and see if i can get any results that will make a difference on a meter.
helping where i can
N8

quick note to add. I put together a very quick generator coil out of a bifiler coil i had around. I wired the two coils together in series to make one coil and packed the core with some iron nails as tightly as i could. I placed this near the running SSG rotor and hooked it to a meter. i measured the voltage output with no magnet, and with a magnet attached to the end in both orientations. I noticed that the closer i got to the core of the coil with the magnet the voltage would slightly start to drop, but as the magnet actually touched the core, it would have a sharp drop. with no magnet attached i was getting 1.5-1.8V depending on the distance to the rotor, with the magnet very near but not touching it would hang around the mid 1.4V range, and when i let the magnet sit on the core directly it would drop to about 1.2V output. it was a pretty simple bare-bones test, but hopefully it will add some useful information for the people doing the real work!

another quick test, this one out of pure curiosity...
in my previous test, i was using neo mags, i do have some ceramic magnets of the same size, so i tried them. i put my coil a bit closer to the rotor and fixed it so it wouldn't move at all, then measured the output voltage. i put the ceramic magnets on the core and again the voltage dropped when it was in direct contact, but not when it was very close. with the ceramic magnets I also saw a much smaller drop in voltage. with the coil positioned to give me 3V flat output, it would drop to about 2.98V with the magnets directly on the core, but there was no drop when they were close. now with the ceramic used as a biasing magnet, i also didn't notice the same reduction in noise as i did with the neos (the reason seems obvious ) so the results were consistent with different magnets and different outputs. no matter what i tried, there was a slight output voltage drop when there was direct contact with the core.

hope all this helps
N8

[Cherryman]

@Toranarod & All
You are right. The problem that I am seeing is in the generator coils. I worked with them today and something just doesn't add up. In Romero's device EACH pair of generator coils produced at least the same amount of voltage as the source voltage. When they were all paralleled the total amperage was enough to exceed the input. That seems to be extremely hard to do based on what I am seeing on my testing unit.
I did get the Hall circuit working yesterday and it made a great improvement in the "motor" part of the device. I played with the "generator" part today trying out a ferrite core in one coil and biasing it with a neo. It is very interesting work but----she ain't gonna run herself ----ever I'm afraid.


YouTube - Muller Dynamo with electronic circuit.ASF

Lidmotor

Hi Lidmotor,

I watched your vid twice, but i couldn't make out if the coil you bring in half way, is in series with the opposite coil?


Happy Building.

[conradelektro]

Magnet biasing a pick up coil could reduce cogging but changes inductance factor

The performance of a pick up coil (generator coil) depends on

- the number of wire turns (more turns need thinner wire, less amperage)

- the size of the coil (its dimensions, also influences the possible number of turns)

- the core material (its inductance factor, its dimensions)

- the gap in between the passing magnet and the core of the coil

- the strength of the passing magnet

- the speed of the passing magnet

If all this is chosen right, some optimum of performance will be achieve.

Putting a magnet near the coil (at the outside) will change the inductance factor of the core. If the inductance factor was right (i.e. achieved an optimum) the performance will drop. If the inductance factor was not optimal, the magnet could cause a performance gain (by correcting the inductance factor).

The more tricky effect is the cogging: more cogging needs a higher force to drive the generator. So, if the magnet reduces cogging there could be a gain in the sense, that less force is needed to drive the generator for the optimum output of the coil.

In short: the benefit of the magnet could be the reduction of cogging (as long as the change of inductance is towards the optimum inductance and not away from it).

Greetings, Conrad

[Groundloop]

@Toranarod & All
You are right. The problem that I am seeing is in the generator coils. I worked with them today and something just doesn't add up. In Romero's device EACH pair of generator coils produced at least the same amount of voltage as the source voltage. When they were all paralleled the total amperage was enough to exceed the input. That seems to be extremely hard to do based on what I am seeing on my testing unit.
I did get the Hall circuit working yesterday and it made a great improvement in the "motor" part of the device. I played with the "generator" part today trying out a ferrite core in one coil and biasing it with a neo. It is very interesting work but----she ain't gonna run herself ----ever I'm afraid.


YouTube - Muller Dynamo with electronic circuit.ASF

Lidmotor

@Lidmotor,

I have no problem with my Muller motor/generator regarding the voltages on the
generator coils. My rotor (Bakelite eg. paper phenol) is 215mm in diameter.
I have 8 magnets 32mm diameter and 20mm thick. The spacing from the magnets
to the rotor outer rim is 10mm. My magnets are alternating NSNSNSNS.
I use 7 coils on each side of the rotor. The coils are air core coils of the loudspeaker
filter type "Monacor LSIP-390" ( 3,9mH - 0,89 Ohm ). I use two directly opposite
coils connected in series as a motor coil. I also use one single coil as a trigger
coil for my motor switch. The rest of the 11 coils is single generator coils.
Each of the single generator coils is connected to a diode bridge and then in
parallel to a electrolytic capacitor. I get 25 Volt output at 25 volt input to the motor switch.
So my "break even" regarding the input voltage vs the output voltage is 25 volt.
That said, I have had my Muller motor for 8 years now. Have tried numerous switch
circuits but have never been able to get more power out of the motor than the
power I put into the motor.

GL.

[toranarod]

this is not my Muller

This is not my Muller replication it is my Adams Motor. I reconfigured it to incorporate the Muller motor design techniques.
There are 8 magnets, 30 x 25.4mm N45 Rare Earth 6000 gauss around the rotor.
I wanted to try the anti cogging techniques incorporated in the Muller motor. The result was very impressive there is no locking of the magnet to the iron cores. I intend to wire this in the same configuration as the Romerouk setup while I wait for a few more parts for my replication. I know the coils and the motor very well I have been tuning it and re building it now for 5 months so I have a lot of data to compare this setup to when it was a very successful Adams motor. I know what the coils put out across an entire range of RPM and gaping. I want to see if this changes enough to allow what Romero showed us.
If I find any thing that is helpful I will post.

[hadcat]

@Toranarod & All
You are right. The problem that I am seeing is in the generator coils. I worked with them today and something just doesn't add up. In Romero's device EACH pair of generator coils produced at least the same amount of voltage as the source voltage. When they were all paralleled the total amperage was enough to exceed the input. That seems to be extremely hard to do based on what I am seeing on my testing unit.
I did get the Hall circuit working yesterday and it made a great improvement in the "motor" part of the device. I played with the "generator" part today trying out a ferrite core in one coil and biasing it with a neo. It is very interesting work but----she ain't gonna run herself ----ever I'm afraid.


YouTube - Muller Dynamo with electronic circuit.ASF

Lidmotor

Hi Lidmotor and all,

I am the one whom suggested using the chokes as cores. Add some air between the back of the core and magnets..The original had 5 mm with addition of a washer to hold the magnets.

Then you finish tuning each coil separate as you already know. Also when you get close, use plastic or paper shims to get really close.

Since we are talking sewing lol....start with a half a bobbin in air distance using a thick plastic washer, then use thin plastic shims .010 inch stuff or so.

Your rotor thickness right now may cause you a problem...it will deflect and give you a headache trying to tune. I know it is a temporary one at this point.

You could prove the higher voltage first by using a static magnet that won't deflect for the rotor side.

I may have time today to wind some coils have the spools now.

[redrichie]

@Lidmotor
"It is very interesting work but----she ain't gonna run herself ----ever I'm afraid. "

Hi Lid thanks for the build but isnt this statement a little misrepresented. I mean This is nowhere near a replication of the device. And nowhere near the Lidmotor way.
I was just singing your praises in the other forum when you made your first coils and test for the replication. I knew if it peaked your interests then there may be something to it. Come on buddy. If you put a fork in it now without actually doing any of the prescribed Muller theory other than odd number of coils to magnets and one ferrite cored coil that isnt stable and denounce it then many others that look to your wisdom will get discouraged. Your one of the most thorough guys around. And i always look forward to your stuff.
I know most people here prob think I dont build much of anything. But most anything I comment on in a thread I am usually building. If I dont have nothing new to show or its a failure I see no need in adding to an already failed bunch of motors in an already crowded forum. I take notes and pictures and learn from all my experiments with you guys. I just purchased a drill press and some other tools I have been needing to make accurate builds that I may be proud to show pictures of in the near future.
Would love to see that Lidmotor perseverance on this one. As always keep up the good work. Thanks man.

[quantumuppercut]

Hello everyone,

I've just realized how hard it is for this device to achieve COP>1. According to my analysis, this device has 6 degrees of efficiency (7 if you include electronic components).

Basically, you have 5 parts in the build: Drive coil, drive core, rotor, pickup core, and pickup coil. If any of these yield low efficiency (like high friction on the rotor) the whole thing could fail even if all other parts are 100% efficient. There are 6 stages of energy conversions.

1/ input to drive coil
2/ drive coil to drive core
3/ drive core to rotor
4/ rotor to output core
5/ output core to output coil
6/ output coil to output
( 7/ electronic components )

input to drive coil rely on how efficient you can make the H field with losses to wire resistance. Drive core is how much hysteresis losses. Rotor is how much bearing friction losses. Since we have the same coil and core for input and output, then the only 3 main things we need to worry about is coil, core, rotor (besides electronic components). Through each stage of energy conversion, there will be losses and the efficiency for each stage will not be 100%.

The equation to calculate total efficiency of the system then:

n1 x n2 x n3 x n4 x n5 x n6 = N
n = stage
N = total efficiency

The COP for the system is N x ideal COP. Let's say the ideal COP for this device is 2. Then the COP = 2N

Let's say that the coil is 90% efficient, core is 90% efficient, rotor is 90% efficient. Then the total efficiency of the system is: .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 = 0.53 . COP = 2 x 0.53 = 1.06

This is barely over unity if not under with electronic losses. Romero must have tuned his coil, core, and rotor to above 90% efficient. I see that the rotor and hysteresis losses is minimal without tuning, but the coil is a big one to worry about. I've been working on reducing the stages to just coil that could yield greater result, but it's still a pain.

[Xenomorph]

The COP for the system is N x ideal COP. Let's say the ideal COP for this device is 2. Then the COP = 2N

Let's say that the coil is 90% efficient, core is 90% efficient, rotor is 90% efficient. Then the total efficiency of the system is: .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 x .9 = 0.53 . COP = 2 x 0.53 = 1.06

And if the ideal COP would be 3 or 5 or 100? You just "assumed" 2.

In a OU device the efficiency can be even 50% if the negative entropy is high enough. Until the exact proportion of additional energy input "by nature" is not known, you can only speculate.
The efficiency alone allows no conclusion about the COP.

[Mark]

I also don't think it will be possible to get enough voltage out of 2 generator coils in series to equal the input voltage. But I thought that was why a DC to DC converter was used, to raise the voltage up.

[ltseung888]

This is not my Muller replication it is my Adams Motor. I reconfigured it to incorporate the Muller motor design techniques.
There are 8 magnets, 30 x 25.4mm N45 Rare Earth 6000 gauss around the rotor.
I wanted to try the anti cogging techniques incorporated in the Muller motor. The result was very impressive there is no locking of the magnet to the iron cores. I intend to wire this in the same configuration as the Romerouk setup while I wait for a few more parts for my replication. I know the coils and the motor very well I have been tuning it and re building it now for 5 months so I have a lot of data to compare this setup to when it was a very successful Adams motor. I know what the coils put out across an entire range of RPM and gaping. I want to see if this changes enough to allow what Romero showed us.
If I find any thing that is helpful I will post.

Dear Rod,

Please continue your work on the Adams Motor. I believe the only thing you need is to add core and magnet to the drive coil. There is no need to have 8/9 or other arrangements. The 8/8 technique is easier to make and tune. You may not need to use all 8 drive coils if your load is not that high.

I played with the Tong Wheel using only one collector coil with soft iron core and a magnet to remove locking. The resulting voltage and current was much higher than with the air coil alone. I know that you are on the right path.

I still believe the “multiple LCR circuits with no moving parts tuned to resonance” is the better solution.

Keep up the good work and may God Bless you.

Lawrence

[Lidmotor]

Good feedback--thanks

@All
Thank you for the feedback. It really helps.

MrBrOOk5 on Youtube suggested the Schottky 95SQ015 diode from Mouser to help out with the power on the generator coils. Those diodes have only a 30 milli volt drop. Build your own bridge with those.

Several people mentioned that RPM is very important aspect to this working and I had to get that higher. I agree but we need to find out what RPM Romero ran at. I don't think that it was a super fast rotor speed that did the trick.

The voltage that I am using, scaled down version, inaccurate design, and just plain weak build, all might be leading me to false conclusions.

@Groundloop-----Your Muller sounds about the most true to a Bill Muller design that I have heard about. It was good to hear that you DID get enough voltage out of your generator coils. It is the watts in vs watts out that still concerns me though. I hope that someone comes forward who has solved the problem.

@hadcat
Thanks for the suggestion about using the ferrite choke for a core. It was a quick way to try that idea. Romero said the he used choke cores out of an old power supply that had copper wire wrapped on them. I read that yesterday ----in fact I spent two hours yesterday rereading the thread at OU trying to pick up more clues. He really did tell us a great deal if you take the time to dig for the info.

@ Xenomorph----I don't know whether to thank you or hate you for getting me started on this project.

Lidmotor

[LaserSaber]

I just finished the two driver boards. I powered the unit up to do a quick test. I have only tested voltage on one set of coils. With 12 volts in I get just over 16 volts out.