Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[kEhYo77]

You're right. But in NNN configuration i don't think it's the same...

That is correct. Romero said 2.5 minimum spacing for muller style rotor in NNN config, but you have found it on your own

A tip for All the builders: It is of very high importance to have all the generator coils match perfectly to one another. Preferably they should be identical, then the effect will be consistent for each coil at certain speed.

[kajunkreations]

out runner

Hey guys, I have decided to use the outrunner method to drive the generator for more consistency. I am using a altenator BLDC as the out runner, I can now spin the rotor at 4200 rpm, so mabey I do get some good data. I still have not found the core composition that I like yet but Im still trying.
The BLDC has tremendous, I can light a 100 watt 120v light bulb on one pair of coils and it does not lose rpm, but the motor draws more current. The BLDC only spins at 1800 rpm @ 24v, Im not sure if that is normal or not, I have seen videos of them going way faster than that, so Im still working on that. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Nolan
Here is a videomuller generator with BLDC motor - YouTube

[toranarod]

Bill Muller Secret

Ok now I am confused...
I thought our way of maximizing phase shifts was to maximize inductance and minimize resistance? But how does that relate to what this guy has to say about calculating phase shifts?



Magnequest - Transformers and Phase Shifts

Notice his conclusion (the underlined part in the quote). Isn't this the opposite of what our current thinking is? Can someone help me understand?

The maximum phase shift for a coil or a capacitor is 90 degrees, except in the case of a capacitor where the phase goes 90 degrees in the opposite direction. The beauty of a capacitor is that there is no resistance, only reactance. Reactance is the opposition to current flow without resistance. This is why no matter how much current you draw using a capacitor it will never generate heat as it would if it were a resistor. Thus being the reason we never see capacitors referred to with a wattage rating. Keep this in mind for later reference when we are discussing the reactance of a coil, for we are now only concerned with a coil’s reactance.
In a perfect world it would be fantastic if our coils had zero resistance and any amount of inductance we chose to manufacture them to. Because of the resistance in our coil the phase angle can never be 100% 90 degrees. As soon as resistance is introduced the angle will reduce. The other contributing factor that changes the phase angle is “time”. As time goes by the angle will reduce even more. As reactance declines over time and resistance becomes the more prominent factor in the circuit the phase angle between current and voltage will return to zero degrees. When I say “time” I am referring to frequency, i.e. in our case, the switching time between the magnets on the rotor.
Our circuits are measured in impedance, a combination of resistance and reactance and frequency of the rotor, defined by “Z”. In most of the electronic design I have ever done in my life inductance and frequency of a coil were of such large factors in a circuit we did not consider resistance as part of the equation. It was considered negligible and not worth concern. However, in this area of engineering that we are trying to conquer resistance is a big factor in the equation.

Looking closely at what we are doing…
When we dead short the coils in our generators the only resistance in the circuit is the coils. It is the coils’ resistance that we are stuck with. We could probably speculate at dead short the phase shift is now 88 degrees and that’s being very generous. Add a load, e.g. light globe or LED, and you add more resistance to the coil. The phase angle between current & voltage is reduced further. The more resistance you add the more the angle moves to zero. But remember the less current you are drawing. Thus the less magnetic Lenz you are creating.
In my view the worst Lenz drag situation will be 45 degrees. When the phase is 45 degrees and the resistance is just right to draw at that angle the most current it can draw is produced at that phase angle, creating the strongest magnetic Lenz field.


When the resistance is just right a phase angle of 45 degrees is created (when resistance equals reactance, reactance being governed by the inductance value). I see this as producing the strongest magnetic Lenz field at the worst possible time. This is a condition that should be avoided in our design.

Remember, reactance is the ability to draw current without the dissipation of heat energy, i.e. wattage. If we get this right and we can keep the generator as close as possible to 90 degrees out of phase we will be creating a reactance generator, not a resistance generator: a generator that will produce large amounts of energy in OU without any heat dissipation. Is this what Robert Adams was referring to with his device when he spoke of “cold current”? Is it all finally falling into place?
Looking at the Bill Muller coil design, he was on to this back then. We just didn't understand why. Muller was trying to build coils that could supply lots of current and low resistance but could still demonstrate high inductance, keeping reactance up as high as possible.
I believe Bill Muller’s final coil designs are still kept secret. I think we are looking at early prototypes only but this should be enough to guide us in the right direction, armed with the knowledge we have.
Shadesz you are on the right track. Stay with your thinking. As your research grows the bigger picture will form.

There are other contributing factors that will help us fine tune the motor generator to squeeze as much as possible out of the system. These are things Romero is working on. He is currently researching magnet ratios, square vs round magnets and coils, conical-shaped core heads (as you were suggesting Shadesz with your approach to pyramid-shaped cores) etc.
I welcome debate about my hypothesis here on this forum. Good luck to all.

[toranarod]

Hey guys, I have decided to use the outrunner method to drive the generator for more consistency. I am using a altenator BLDC as the out runner, I can now spin the rotor at 4200 rpm, so mabey I do get some good data. I still have not found the core composition that I like yet but Im still trying.
The BLDC has tremendous, I can light a 100 watt 120v light bulb on one pair of coils and it does not lose rpm, but the motor draws more current. The BLDC only spins at 1800 rpm @ 24v, Im not sure if that is normal or not, I have seen videos of them going way faster than that, so Im still working on that. Any info would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Nolan
Here is a videomuller generator with BLDC motor - YouTube

it's all looking good keep putting more information as you go. looking forward to your Results.

[toranarod]

After days of testing ... here is my first result, thanks to Romero for advising the single coil/many RPM test


Speed Under Load Test.


COIL :

24 SWG (0.56mm, 23 AWG is closest at 0.573mm)

L = 53 mH
R = 60 Ohms

55mm long and 37mm wide.

Coil former barrel diameter is 15mm.

Unsure of number of turns since shop bought.


ROTOR :

VHS motor.

Diameter : 60mm


MAGNETS :

8 x 10mm diameter x 5mm height disc magnets, grade N42.
Magnets arranged N/S.


DRIVE CIRCUITRY :

Standard SSG drive circuit with charging diode removed.


RESULTS :

At 1100 RPM, shorting the coil increased the RPM to 1290

The input current went up from 115 mA to 120 mA

I will now do more testing and post results

I have done more testing and at some spots the RPM goes up while the current draw remains the same and i have just found my first spot where RPM goes up and current draw goes down.

@ Marius, this is at low RPM's starting off at around 1000 and the effect is there.

I do what ewizard advises and i put some MDF and some tool boxes around the device to catch any escaping magnets.

can i see a photo of your coils. the resistance is high for that wire but the Henry's is to my liking. is that 6.0 ohm. maybe?

good results all looks perfect

[toranarod]

Hi Toranarod
I did damage my rotor;tryed to fix it but in the end one magnet flew off. I was very lucky it didn't hit me . It flew off around 6000 rpm. So now i bouth other 16 mags (10/10mm cube n48) becouse i want to make a new rotor with the duble nr of magnets hopping i will get the same effect at lower rpm.Since i want to make a new one please tell me if you now what is the best distance between the mags. I'm also on the other forum Muller Dynamo . Im changing very frequently my setup becouse now i have some more time and also i have many ideas. I'm doing that becouse not always the theory is the same as practice. Yesterday i connected the gen coils between them before the bridges and i did get the speeding in dead short but not in load. Didn't knew what to do with that, i've changed once again my setup

Hello mariuscivic.

your work is impressive and I just was wondering what you where doing.
Romero said you had an accident with your motor and was having trouble replicating it. I have been looking for your post.

great to hear how things are going. Ihave been over there Romero Experiments at this forum talking about some designee changes. I am going to give NSNS a try I have believed it was not the way to. But time to test that idea.

[mariuscivic]

Hello mariuscivic.

your work is impressive and I just was wondering what you where doing.
Romero said you had an accident with your motor and was having trouble replicating it. I have been looking for your post.

great to hear how things are going. Ihave been over there Romero Experiments at this forum talking about some designee changes. I am going to give NSNS a try I have believed it was not the way to. But time to test that idea.

Hi Toranarod!

I tested NS config. too. I had more power in the output but also the drag was greater.

[MonsieurM]

Hi kEhYo77!

You're right. But in NNN configuration i don't think it's the same. I've allready put on my rotor 10 mags (10/10mm) witch gave a distance of 20mm between them and i had trouble with my hall senzor.It was very dificult to find the ''sweat spot'' for triggering and I couldn't spin the rotor more than 3000 rpm. In my curent rotor the space between the mags is 25mm. Those 5 mm more make a huge difference . I think it's very important the strenght of the magnetic field.

there must be a ratio then between strength of magnet and distance that could allow you to use any type of magnet as long as you know that ratio number

[elias]

Attraction vs Repulsion

@Shadesz

There is a problem with that calculator, and it is the fact that it gives identical force for repulsion and attraction. But as I have tested it in the link below attraction is stronger than repulsion, for the same type of magnets:
Attraction vs Repulsion in Magnetic Fields 2 - YouTube

Then gravityblock posted this link that gave you different results for attraction and repulsion:
Pull and Push Between 2 Disc Magnets

Interestingly attraction is about 1.6 times(Golden Mean) stronger than repulsion!

I think that one of Bill mullers secrets is extracting energy when the magnet approaches the coil and also using the attraction of magnets to the cores of coils for driving in his even odd design.

Elias

[prato_braun]

permanent effect

maybe the effect is somehow related to this effect shown with permanent magnets.
because the video is in german i hust quickly walk you through it.

1)the outer ring has its south pole centered in the middle while the magnet used as a projectile has its south on the outside. that's why u can't pass the projectile through the ring without quite a force to overcome the repulsion.
2)now he puts the projectile on a disk which has all north poles facing out.
the spot where he puts the projectile is a kind of equilibrium spot where the projectile and the disk cancel each other out so it just sits loosely there.
3)the outside of the disk being north is strong enough to hide the south pole of the projectile completely within it. still it is in attraction mode to the ring!!!
4) approaching the ring now takes no extra force in fact it gets easier and at a certain point the projectile shoots because of the repulsive force of the ring.

5) in the later videos he finds out that the kinetic force gained by the repulsion is enough to go through another 'gate' and continue the process.

IN FRONT OF THE GATE IS DIFFERENT FROM BEHIND

MFB-Magnet-Feld-Beschleuniger.Vol1 - YouTube
MFB-Magnet Feld Beschleuniger Vol.4 - YouTube
MFB-Magnet Feld Beschleuniger...info! Vol.7 - YouTube

If its' off topic just delete.
Cheers,

Prato

[hello_all]

voilation of energy law

ENERGY CAN BE CREATED ~ Theory of Conservation of Energy is False - YouTube

look at this , he has big rotor and input 200watts+ while he can add 84watts extra thru regenerative coils

[hello_all]

Part 1 GATES CORPORATION Demo - YouTube

here is video explaining the coil priniciple

[hello_all]

frequency effect

"Dare to be naive." ~ R. Buckminster Fuller - YouTube

this shows what happens at 600rpm and 1800rpm the frequency changes add to regenrative effect

[MonsieurM]

@Shadesz

There is a problem with that calculator, and it is the fact that it gives identical force for repulsion and attraction. But as I have tested it in the link below attraction is stronger than repulsion, for the same type of magnets:
Attraction vs Repulsion in Magnetic Fields 2 - YouTube

Then gravityblock posted this link that gave you different results for attraction and repulsion:
Pull and Push Between 2 Disc Magnets

Interestingly attraction is about 1.6 times(Golden Mean) stronger than repulsion!

I think that one of Bill mullers secrets is extracting energy when the magnet approaches the coil and also using the attraction of magnets to the cores of coils for driving in his even odd design.

Elias

Thanks Elias for the info

[Shadesz]

The maximum phase shift for a coil or a capacitor is 90 degrees, except in the case of a capacitor where the phase goes 90 degrees in the opposite direction. The beauty of a capacitor is that there is no resistance, only reactance. Reactance is the opposition to current flow without resistance. This is why no matter how much current you draw using a capacitor it will never generate heat as it would if it were a resistor. Thus being the reason we never see capacitors referred to with a wattage rating. Keep this in mind for later reference when we are discussing the reactance of a coil, for we are now only concerned with a coil’s reactance.
In a perfect world it would be fantastic if our coils had zero resistance and any amount of inductance we chose to manufacture them to. Because of the resistance in our coil the phase angle can never be 100% 90 degrees. As soon as resistance is introduced the angle will reduce. The other contributing factor that changes the phase angle is “time”. As time goes by the angle will reduce even more. As reactance declines over time and resistance becomes the more prominent factor in the circuit the phase angle between current and voltage will return to zero degrees. When I say “time” I am referring to frequency, i.e. in our case, the switching time between the magnets on the rotor.
Our circuits are measured in impedance, a combination of resistance and reactance and frequency of the rotor, defined by “Z”. In most of the electronic design I have ever done in my life inductance and frequency of a coil were of such large factors in a circuit we did not consider resistance as part of the equation. It was considered negligible and not worth concern. However, in this area of engineering that we are trying to conquer resistance is a big factor in the equation.

Looking closely at what we are doing…
When we dead short the coils in our generators the only resistance in the circuit is the coils. It is the coils’ resistance that we are stuck with. We could probably speculate at dead short the phase shift is now 88 degrees and that’s being very generous. Add a load, e.g. light globe or LED, and you add more resistance to the coil. The phase angle between current & voltage is reduced further. The more resistance you add the more the angle moves to zero. But remember the less current you are drawing. Thus the less magnetic Lenz you are creating.
In my view the worst Lenz drag situation will be 45 degrees. When the phase is 45 degrees and the resistance is just right to draw at that angle the most current it can draw is produced at that phase angle, creating the strongest magnetic Lenz field.


When the resistance is just right a phase angle of 45 degrees is created (when resistance equals reactance, reactance being governed by the inductance value). I see this as producing the strongest magnetic Lenz field at the worst possible time. This is a condition that should be avoided in our design.

Remember, reactance is the ability to draw current without the dissipation of heat energy, i.e. wattage. If we get this right and we can keep the generator as close as possible to 90 degrees out of phase we will be creating a reactance generator, not a resistance generator: a generator that will produce large amounts of energy in OU without any heat dissipation. Is this what Robert Adams was referring to with his device when he spoke of “cold current”? Is it all finally falling into place?
Looking at the Bill Muller coil design, he was on to this back then. We just didn't understand why. Muller was trying to build coils that could supply lots of current and low resistance but could still demonstrate high inductance, keeping reactance up as high as possible.
I believe Bill Muller’s final coil designs are still kept secret. I think we are looking at early prototypes only but this should be enough to guide us in the right direction, armed with the knowledge we have.
Shadesz you are on the right track. Stay with your thinking. As your research grows the bigger picture will form.

There are other contributing factors that will help us fine tune the motor generator to squeeze as much as possible out of the system. These are things Romero is working on. He is currently researching magnet ratios, square vs round magnets and coils, conical-shaped core heads (as you were suggesting Shadesz with your approach to pyramid-shaped cores) etc.
I welcome debate about my hypothesis here on this forum. Good luck to all.

Thanks Rod.

Seems I need to get to my general electricity theory classes as soon as possible. I need to better understand how voltage and current can be out of phase. Any simple explanations of this? (I think I need to study better what voltage is)