Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

Yes At first I was speculating that fat coils are better, but experimentation proved otherwise, will post a picture of my coils as I get my hands to them. For the mean time:

First coil: 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 80mm in length, with a 10mm diameter ferrite core.

Second coil: about 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 40mm in length with a 10 mm diameter ferrite core.

These are approximations, not exact values, but the voltage reading was the same for the same rotor, and the second one really dragged more while shorting.

I did also another test with another type of coil with 2mm wire on it with the same results.

Elias

once again we come back to the Muller motor coil design.
Thane C Heins has built a Muller and changed the name.
I still think Romero is right with a conical core shape.
my magnets on my motor have a retaining screw in the center this give them
a dome type geometry. remember this video
I have had better results to. I first thought the screws where a bad idea
but they did something to make a little improvement.
must be the conical shape.
Thane C Heins Replication, Confirming the Negative Lenz Effect - YouTube
Shades did you ever try the wedge shape you posted some time back?

[elias]

Why does the current lag just 90 degrees?

This link is one of the excellent sources:
Electricity - Basic Navy Training Courses, NAVPERS10622, Chapter 17 - AC Circuits - RF Cafe

But .. I don't really know what happens to the coils voltage when current is drawn from it and not applied to it. That is a test that we should make! What happens to the voltage? The current lag is the result of the coil inducing negative voltage to the generated voltage, Thus changing the overall voltage of the coil. This needs to be tested by an oscilloscope.

[Shadesz]

Yes At first I was speculating that fat coils are better, but experimentation proved otherwise, will post a picture of my coils as I get my hands to them. For the mean time:

First coil: 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 80mm in length, with a 10mm diameter ferrite core.

Second coil: about 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 40mm in length with a 10 mm diameter ferrite core.

These are approximations, not exact values, but the voltage reading was the same for the same rotor, and the second one really dragged more while shorting.

I did also another test with another type of coil with 2mm wire on it with the same results.

Elias

Thank you for this. It is interesting stuff. I think you may have two things going here though. First, as you said, you maintained ouput while reducing resistance, and this seems to help with our lenz lag.

I think another thing may have been in play as well: your longer coil was about twice the mass as your short coil. And this too might have helped delay lenz.

If you think about it, the magnet has to charge the core. If the core mass is greater, it will take the magnet more energy to charge it. This extra required energy manifests itself in a longer magnet approach distance.

In other words, your approaching magnet may have to travel longer with a bigger core to get it to the same charge level.

This is just my current theory/understanding. Further testing/investigation is required.

[Shadesz]

This link is one of the excellent sources:
Electricity - Basic Navy Training Courses, NAVPERS10622, Chapter 17 - AC Circuits - RF Cafe

But .. I don't really know what happens to the coils voltage when current is drawn from it and not applied to it. That is a test that we should make! What happens to the voltage? The current lag is the result of the coil inducing negative voltage to the generated voltage, Thus changing the overall voltage of the coil. This needs to be tested by an oscilloscope.

Thank you that link is very helpful. So quick question to check my understanding. Radio transmissions can use the phase shift to store/send data correct?

[Shadesz]

That's an interesting idea
I would like to know what your thinking is we need some new input.
if it is 180 then that would be fantastic
always willing to look at new ideas.
why we get the phase difference from inductors because any electrical field in motion creates magnetic field in motion. and that magnetic field in turn induces current to flow in the opposite direction to the current that created it. that's all I got.

Please explain your Ideas

Ok, sweet that is enough to help me feel like my thinking is not way off base. I'll get it written down, illustrated, and posted later today.

If the theory holds true, I think I know how we can actually reverse lenz: BUT currently it is just a theory.

[Shadesz]

once again we come back to the Muller motor coil design.
Thane C Heins has built a Muller and changed the name.
I still think Romero is right with a conical core shape.
my magnets on my motor have a retaining screw in the center this give them
a dome type geometry. remember this video
I have had better results to. I first thought the screws where a bad idea
but they did something to make a little improvement.
must be the conical shape.
Thane C Heins Replication, Confirming the Negative Lenz Effect - YouTube
Shades did you ever try the wedge shape you posted some time back?

Yeah I'm not too impressed with Thane. He seems a bit over zealous and I question his motives... (social recognition?) If he would consider how he comes across, and change his approach, he would get his point across so much easier and more effectively...

As far as your question. I have not tested the angled core face. I am still pretty far from any working unit.

I do think I have a better idea than that one though. Easier to test, and better at delaying lenz. I have partially tested my new angle concept with a cd. Ithas given good results so far. The cd has magnets hot glued to it and I use a mock core. Maybe one of you guys could try this design and report back?

Note: This design idea is released open source on this the 25th of September 2011 by me, the originator of the idea, David Sphar.

Ok, now that that is out of the way it goes like this...

What if we used an angle face to help pull the magnet forward while at the same time, we delay lenz by shielding the core/coil during most of the approach? Theoretically, you should still be able to get the same power output (same distance of change in magnetic field around the coil) it will just be more condensed, hence less time for lenz.

The idea is to use a shielding material at an angle on the approaching side of the core face. The material's shielding properties should be strong (thick) enough so that the force of your magnet will not create a field on the back side of the shield. The shield also should not actually touch the core or the coil, but should be insulted from both. Position the shield so it is at an angle with the part closest to the rotor magnet being closest to the core. Lastly, make sure the core points out slightly farther than the shield (not like in the picture).

It should look something like this...

On my CD tests, the shield serves as a "reach" mechanism that will actually reach out to the magnet and pull it towards the core. IE, if the cd is not moving, and I place the core between magnets so the cd still doesn't rotate, and then I introduce the angled shield, the attraction to the angled shield will cause the cd to start turning. The cd will continue to turn until the magnet reaches tdc of the coil. It's pretty simple, but kind of exciting too. I still wonder how this effect works on an asymmetric coil to magnet generator. I still can't rule out the idea that the angled pull might just surprise us. But that is besides the focus here.

Ok, so now to explain the lenz delay. If the shield is large enough, the magnetic field from the magnet will not be able to influence the coil. Without it influencing the coil, it will also not experience lenz drag. Then as the magnet's field passes form the shield to the actual core, lenz will show up, BUT notice that the magnet will be much farther along than if we had no shield at all? Hence we get a lenz delay caused by our magnet shield accelerator.



Note also, that it appears to me that we will not get a reduction in power generation if the magnet is still slightly smaller than the core. This is because theoretically we still go from zero to full magnetic influence in the core, it just happens more quickly. Hence we get the same potential energy output, it just happens more quickly. (Note that this may cause heating issues in wire that was previously adequate to handle the load because the current has to travel more quickly. So watch those coils)

Anyways that should be enough. What do you think? Do I need to clarify anything?

Ps, I am still working on explaining my 180 degree phase shift theory in a pickup inductor, but figured I would throw this idea out there. The 180* theory explains the importance of high inductance, but I am still trying to figure out the resistance part. Anyways I have had the above concept in my head for a couple weeks and need to get it unloaded to make room for the next ideas.

[qvision]

@ Shadesz, yes i am DeepCut in that thread.

Here are my results so far.

AUL EFFECT 0.5 VOLTAGE RANGE TEST.xls

DSC01433.JPG

[Shadesz]

@ Shadesz, yes i am DeepCut in that thread.

Here are my results so far.

AUL EFFECT 0.5 VOLTAGE RANGE TEST.xls

DSC01433.JPG

lol, your last post on that page is perfect!

Hey can you label that table for us?

Thanks

[qvision]

What labels do you think it needs ?

[Shadesz]

oh... nevermind it is labeled. You had saved it scrolled over to the right so I didn't see them.

[MonsieurM]

Yeah I'm not too impressed with Thane. He seems a bit over zealous and I question his motives... (social recognition?) If he would consider how he comes across, and change his approach, he would get his point across so much easier and more effectively...

As far as your question. I have not tested the angled core face. I am still pretty far from any working unit.

I do think I have a better idea than that one though. Easier to test, and better at delaying lenz. I have partially tested my new angle concept with a cd. Ithas given good results so far. The cd has magnets hot glued to it and I use a mock core. Maybe one of you guys could try this design and report back?

Note: This design idea is released open source on this the 25th of September 2011 by me, the originator of the idea, David Sphar.

Ok, now that that is out of the way it goes like this...

What if we used an angle face to help pull the magnet forward while at the same time, we delay lenz by shielding the core/coil during most of the approach? Theoretically, you should still be able to get the same power output (same distance of change in magnetic field around the coil) it will just be more condensed, hence less time for lenz.

The idea is to use a shielding material at an angle on the approaching side of the core face. The material's shielding properties should be strong (thick) enough so that the force of your magnet will not create a field on the back side of the shield. The shield also should not actually touch the core or the coil, but should be insulted from both. Position the shield so it is at an angle with the part closest to the rotor magnet being closest to the core. Lastly, make sure the core points out slightly farther than the shield (not like in the picture).

It should look something like this...

:

you should check out this vid...looks interesting


syncopetra's Channel - YouTube

Part 2 The evolution process to the source of Murray's ultra efficiency - YouTube

[Farmhand]

Hi Guys, I was doing some study in this book.
The inventions, researches and writings of Nikola Tesla, with special reference to his work in polyphase currents and high potential lighting : Martin, Thomas Commerford, 1856-1924 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive

And I found some chapters that might be interesting to some of you.

It seems Tesla tried just about everything to improve efficiency and power.

I recommend anyone experimenting with motors to get this PDF and study it.

I can't link all the relevent chapters. But a quick look in the index should point one in the right direction.

Here are a couple of C&P's.

Chapter XII (12) Page 67 "Magnetic Lag Motors"



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Chapter XVIII (18) Page 88 "Motors Based on The Difference of Phase in the Magnetization of the Inner and Outer Parts of an Iron Core.



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A couple more.

Chapter X (10) Page 58 "Motor With Current Lag Artificially Secured"

Chapter XV (15) Page 79 "Motors with Circuits of Different Resistance"

And Much Much more.

I would almost bet my last dollar that the principals used by Thane came from this book or one just like it.

Fair warning ! If I can make a connection between current works by anyone in present times and Tesla's or any other dead persons work I will say so. If someone finds something done by Tesla or others that is useful then say so don't keep it to you're self and claim it as you're own. Eventually you will be found out. Too many people are trying to take credit for work already done.

Seems to me if Tesla didn't try it already then he had a bad day one day, he seems to have tried everything and no doubt with a genius like him he would have thought through almost every conceivable configuration in his head.

But there is always a chance.

Cheers

EDIT: Another one.
Chapter XIII (13) "Method of Obtaining Difference of Phase by Magnetic Shielding".

[Shadesz]

Great book Farmhand! Thanks for the link!

@all,

It appears too much to explain my phase shifting theory today. On that same note, it appears like we may actually be talking about two different phase shifts.

Traditionally the phase shift relates to voltage and current in an inductor. Right now I am working on a power point to post that will explain my theory on that.

But more importantly there appears (at least I hope) to be a different phase shift. This isn't so much a phase shift as a sinewave time delay from the primary coil to the secondary coil. IE, if the current is measured on each the primary and secondary and is compared, there should be a delay time on the secondary.

Can anyone PLEASE confirm suggestion this? It has great application if we can figure out how to delay the current wave by say 90 or 180 degrees.

Ps, I will post the powerpoint (would you like it as a pdf instead?) when I finish it up.

[Farmhand]

Hi Shadesz, Yeah it is a good book, I remember reading a while ago about the Motor with
Condenser in One of the Field Circuits. Chapter XXII (22) Page 106. And I
thought at the time it was relevent to these experiments. I did link it at the
time.

Anyway all you guys are working so hard, I wish I could help more. I hope to
get organised enough to get a setup together soon. I'm having trouble
deciding how to build a good experimental setup for testing the things I want
to test.

I think I want a setup with slip rings or something so I can use Armature's,
and stuff. I'll get some idea forming if I read the book some more.
Maybe something with provision for an out-runner motor/generator as well.

[elias]

@everyone

The more I think about this phase shift, the more I understand that it is real. I have an MS in computer architecture, and have studied all of this stuff in the university, They seemed to call this apparent or reactive power, and not real power, but it is real, that was a misconception. It is generated from the vacuum, that is why they did not understand it. They model it like it being stored in the inductor and then released to the load. Because the voltage will be developed in the load, after the current is released to it. But that voltage is about 90 degrees out of phase from the voltage of the source supply, thus the source does not provide that power directly, it is provided by the inductor from the vacuum, as I see it.

The inductor induces back emf to the applied voltage and then releases the current to the load with a 90 degree lag so that the source doesn't see it. The voltage of the load will be delayed too, and it will be out of phase with the source.

As I think that reality works in symbols and behaves in strange ways such as I posted my understanding about Iron = Fe = Free Energy.

Now take this one:


The digaram above shows the applied voltage to the coil, and its delayed counterpart voltage (E_si) which is 180 degrees in lag to the applied voltage (E_a).

That is the infinity symbol isn't it! And the current is generated between it! I take that as a confirmation. Thank you universe!

Elias