Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

@Rod

I have been thinking along and thinking along and thinking along ...
We will never get FE if we rely on conventional models of electricity and coils and such, we can use them as a tool to analyze our stuff, but it is a waste of time to try to get something by phase shift or such, OUR BEST TOOL is EXPERIMENTATION. And you are the one that have built one of the best units to date, So i need to ask you do some measurements?

Because our models have been built on ideal cores and coils, we need to get FE from something that has not been accounted for, in the current model. One of them is the response time of the Iron molecules for the change in magnetic flux, I think that the effects that particularly you are showing us is related to that one! Not the phase shift by itself, the phase shift is really helping this effect manifest, but will not give you real acceleration. What you are showing us is REAL acceleration, and that is very valuable.

So I need to ask you measure the phase difference between your voltage and current in the coil to do this, you need a dual channel scope. To measure the current by the scope, I recommend you using a 0.1 ohms resistor, or a high wattage low voltage lamp, like car headlights to short the coil. Measuring the potential diff of that will give you the current phase, and to measure the voltage you can measure the voltage of the adjacent coil, and offset the phase difference, which in your case is 360/9 = 45 degrees.

See if you can measure this in different RPMs, I strongly believe that this is related to the property of Iron = Fe.

Thanks
Elias

Hello elias

I am out of the house at the moment on a few days with family.
I will be back home in the next 48 hours or so. with this rest I should be armed with so new enthusiasm. I have been building generators so long it can just get to point you burn out.

I will be calling on all of you to help with the experiments as I do them. We will try a verity of test and hopeful work together to come to a better understanding of what we see on the bench.
I have two duel trace scopes, 1 analog and 1 digital and lots of other test gear and all the electronic components and power supplies.

[toranarod]

Hey guys I just built this simulator circuit to help us learn and design a 'lenz delay pickup circuit'.

It shows you a normal loaded circuit and a circuit with the inductor delay. Play with it and notice how the resistance and inductance effects the size of the delay and the power output. Also, look how if you keep the resistance and inductance the same but increase the frequency you can increase the delay as well.

Using this makes me think we probably don't want a full 90 degree delay... our power output would be minimal... unless we use it strictly as a drive force.. if we ever could... but if we want to draw power off it, a 90 degree shift may not be most desirable.

great simulation.

about your rotors. I buy PVC disc and make rotors out of them. its cheap and easy to work with. do you have any friends with a machine shop just to spin them up to round?

[fennyq]

very helpful

[elias]

Hello elias

I am out of the house at the moment on a few days with family.
I will be back home in the next 48 hours or so. with this rest I should be armed with so new enthusiasm. I have been building generators so long it can just get to point you burn out.

I will be calling on all of you to help with the experiments as I do them. We will try a verity of test and hopeful work together to come to a better understanding of what we see on the bench.
I have two duel trace scopes, 1 analog and 1 digital and lots of other test gear and all the electronic components and power supplies.

Wishing you a very great time! I am looking forward to it. In the mean time, let me see if I can make new coils and do some other tests.

[elias]

great simulation.

about your rotors. I buy PVC disc and make rotors out of them. its cheap and easy to work with. do you have any friends with a machine shop just to spin them up to round?

@Shadesz
I usually make them laser cut out of plexiglass, but I don't know how much it will cost you in your country. It costs me about 25$ for each rotor of a reasonable size, (eg 30cm diameter).

[elias]

I found some new info.
Most of you may have seen this video: Bill Muller Coiltest - YouTube

Bill Muller lights a 300W lamp with no drag to his rotor.

This is what Bill Muller says on that video:

Use the strongest magents you can get, "let the magents do the work"

NEVER iron cores against very strong neo magnets

Iron will change polartiy too slow and back up whithin itself causing heat ans waste and LATCH

His cores of amorphous black sand have "random ferrites" in them, and the ferrites are encased in crystalline if you look with microscope

Those big neomagnets glide right past his cores

If looking with scope, CURRENT and VOLTS peaks happen at same time in those coils

Then Konehead has commented:

I was there when this was filmed!

Rotor has hockey puck size neodimium magnets N-S around rotor. I think 16 of them.

That is 300W bulb lit with one coil held by hand.

Coils mounted to stator plates are of ODD number, while N-S rotor magnets are EVEN number.

CORES of coils are of "low hysterisis amorphous black sand"

He switches motor coil(s) at both hi and lo of coil, (2 swtiches) and extracts backemf/recoil through FWBR AC legs across each switch and DC of FWBR into caps.

[thaelin]

Laser cut rotors

I can agree on the laser cut. I just received my parts and its great. I highly recommend it if you want precision parts. If you are the one who dropped the link to Plasticare, many thanks.

thay

@Shadesz
I usually make them laser cut out of plexiglass, but I don't know how much it will cost you in your country. It costs me about 25$ for each rotor of a reasonable size, (eg 30cm diameter).

[eagle_0x]

Hello,
I am new here watching this dicsussion with great interest. I just saw this vid of Muller and the special core-material
Here we go ( low permeability and constant magnetic characteristics ):
Amorphous Magnetic Powder Core, Sell Amorphous Magnetic Powder Core,Amorphous Magnetic Powder Core,Magnetic Powder Core - Power Transmission & Transformer

Regards

eagle_0x

[elias]

This is from my last post:

If looking with scope, CURRENT and VOLTS peaks happen at same time in those coils

What this means, I can not tell for sure, but I think that there must be something else to those cores Muller was using, that made them unable to induce drag to rotor.

[kajunkreations]

I found some new info.
Most of you may have seen this video: Bill Muller Coiltest - YouTube

Bill Muller lights a 300W lamp with no drag to his rotor.

This is what Bill Muller says on that video:



Then Konehead has commented:

I have studied all of the videos that I can find on the muller dynamo, There are few conflicting videos. The older videos(coil test video) uses regular round coils, and the coil that he holds in his hand is also just a round coil. If you listen carefully it does slow the rotor down a little, not as much as you would expect but it does slow down.
I have tried the set up with switching both the hi and lo side of the coil and only firing the coil on the north poles, the rotor is NSNS config. It allows you isolate the coil easily when it is not being used as a motor. so that means you capture the bemf and the south passing pole and then firing again for the next north pole. I had some positive results with this but still need the right coils, I do believe this the right direction to go.
I think all coils sets have to be used for driving and collection. In the video where Carmen does the presentation, she shows a video of the Mark II on a projector with Rex Herbert working the motor. He says that they control all 15 coil sets and all can be used for driving and generation and that in 1 revolution there are 240 switches that take place. He also says that they can reverse the polarity of the coils.
I believe with the right high current ,low impedance coils and using pulses to defeat lenz we will get somewhere.

Nolan

[gyula]

This is from my last post:


What this means, I can not tell for sure, but I think that there must be something else to those cores Muller was using, that made them unable to induce drag to rotor.

If the load was purely resistive for the gen coils then it can explain the voltage-current phase coincidence pretty close, once the cores had a low permeability, meaning a low value inductance can cause but a small amount of phase shift. One more thing: I am sure the precise mechanical setup for eliminating mechanical cogging surely reduced this effect, for probably the mechanical forces between the odd/even pairs were only moderately and symmetrically opposed by the Lenz 'drag'. (I mean If the coils had had much higher self inductance and not stepped shape, the drag must have been much higher.)

Gyula

[MonsieurM]

guys as i was reading the following Floyd Sweet: Space Quanta Magnifier / Vacuum Triode Amplifier ~ Collected papers, diagrams, photos & videos , I found this little piece of info

A Way to Program Magnets

I have spoken with a fellow who had hired Don Watson several years ago to replicate the Sweet device; allegedly Watson was able to get about 3 watts from one model. The deal however went sour somehow, and work was not continued.

Sweet, too, had a beginning model that output 6 watts until he did something *more* to excite the living you-know-what out of the barium nuclei - only after that was the phenomenal power gain (and 500 watt nominal output) available to use (for a while - until it inevitably sputtered out).

Watson is correct in mentioning one way to excite barium nuclei in a magnet. It is a weak method however, and does not cause much action (at least as I have done it)

One experiment I tried on this angle some time ago, caused some odd effects.

I had a 4x6x1" barium ferrite slab sitting on top of a large tupperware (polypropylene) container, about 2 feet off the floor. The slab was magnetized and its attraction held a steel alligator clip onto it, in electrical contact. The other end of the alligator clip wire (about 2 feet long) connected to one terminal of a neon sign transformer.

The neon xfmr is rated 15 kV, center tapped, so each output represents about a 7.5 kV RMS AC signal, the two outputs being out of phase of course. The other end of the xfmr output was left open. Only one end was used. The transformer's case (center tap) was grounded.

So the magnet sitting on the plastic container was oscillated with about 7.5 kVRMS at 60 Hz.

I was living with a roommate at the time who came near the thing and didn't know it was "on". Glad he didn't touch it.

He was curious what it was and said when he put his head near the magnet to have a look, it built up a "pressure" behind his forehead, which caused him a curious headache afterward. (use Caution )


The magnet, after a while of this treatment, does develop a *slight* and mellow buzz, as I am used to feeling it. However I doubt it would be immediately perceptible to the unaccustomed observer. It is a small thing. And it will not create magnetic bubbles, so far as I know.

The excitation does decay rapidly, and usually will not hold for more than a period of ten minutes. It begins to decay immediately after excitation is removed, and the rate of decay appears to be exponential.

[Shadesz]

Second page? What? We are slacking!?!

JK, I hope the break was good for all of us!

Rod,

Good job making that aluminum ring levitate! It was interesting that you got it with a 49 degree phase shift and at only 60 hertz. I wonder what would happen to our magnets if we delay our pickup coil's current just 45 degrees.

Thanks for the tips on rotors everyone. I might get access to a machine shop (the friend is currently out of state on a church mission) but I might get to use his shop anyway. I have to contact him.

Keep on plugging

[Dave45]

Rod
Have you built the pointed cores yet

[Shadesz]

BTW,

60 hz is only 450 RPM on an 8 magnet rotor.