Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

Hello

I am very happy to see many people are getting on to this.
Good luck to all of the builders. The Lenz drag is not like it seems at all.

Thanks lidmotor for your recent video, it clearly shows that there is something
to this system, that we do not see when we think conventionally.

I am looking forward to see more results. It would be really good if we could
reach a place to lay out a complete blueprint about the Muller machine so that
any one can follow and build it. I am out of budget at the moment for this.

Also as I was reaching for very high speeds (more than 6000RPM) it was quite
dangerous, and plexiglass doesn't have the necessary strength to withstand
that type of pressure, so I highly recommend against using plexiglass.

The pulsing in the Muller design allows the other coils to collect, when one of
them is firing at the moment. That makes a stepwise increase in speed right at
that moment, and helps decrease the Lenz effect. Also because all of the coils
are out of phase with eachother, when one is generating a maximum voltage
the others are generating less than that, thus it makes the machine work
much uniformly. Namely there will be 15 different phases in a 15 coil machine.

Because there is no magnetic cogging in this system, when the Lenz repulsion
kicks in, it causes minimal drag, because it cannot overcome the strong
attraction that keeps the system, with cog. So the system doesn't
see the momentary Lenz repulsive drag because of that. Note that there is no
attractive drag in this system. At the attractive phase, the generator works
as a motor, and pushes the magnet away. Another major factor is the speed
of operation, as the speed is higher, the less drag will be noticed, by the
rotor. All of this when add up makes this motor-generator, do what it does.
This system must be seen as a whole.

<Attraction of unlike poles in magnetic fields is much more powerful than repulsion of like poles>

I am going to demonstrate the statement above, with a simple device I had built quite time ago.

Elias

The explanation you have just posted is very interesting.
I am going to extract it for a PDF i am writing. Is that Ok?
Sounds very feasible to me.

[elias]

The explanation you have just posted is very interesting.
I am going to extract it for a PDF i am writing. Is that Ok?
Sounds very feasible to me.

Hi Rod

It is completely Ok if it makes sense to you.
This is me thinking out loud + combining what I have observed with my
experiments back in February this year which led up to an exploded rotor.
You can follow this work here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...e-obvious.html

The attraction being stronger than repulsion, is the asymmetry in the system
that make the magnets drive the rotor, in my opinion. When one coil fires
asymmetry is created in the system by releasing and repulsing one magnet
thus the other magnets help drive the rotor forward, by attracting.

Another important observation of mine was regarding shorting coils with ferrite
cores. When shorting the coil in lower speeds (about 1500RPM) it cogged the
rotor much much more than higher speeds (6000 RPM). I don't have real
results at hand, but it was quite noticeable. The speed decrease was about
300 RPM at 1500 RPM, and about 60 RPM when operating at 6000RPM. It was
completely evident that speed made the reaction become too clumsy to cause
much drag on the system.

I am posting all this again, to encourage people build the Muller machine. It is
real. I will post a video of my device demonstrating the power of magnet
attraction, vs magnet repulsion, as I promised.

Elias

[Slider2732]

Elias, I believe you have it worked out correctly, from my own experiments. That doesn't mean as much from me perhaps, because i'm new to anything pulse motor related, but, having discovered amazing results with my first such motor, began to extensively study with the device right in front of me.
There are some obvious traits, which anyone who has been around motors and magnets for a while will know...there are some unobvious traits, which new people to conventional physics laws and calculations will be blissfully unaware of. Such a person is perhaps myself.

So, we have a rotor, it has drag from any physical connection enabling it to rotate.
We have strong magnets, which interact with each other, as well as singularly producing N/S magnetic effects.
There is a transistor, or many, whose properties will affect performance.
We have coils, which exhibit fully understood working properties but crucially misunderstood extra properties.
And a recycling of energy section, which slowly increases energy out compared to energy in.
The aesthetic design of any system isn't the important part - what and how and why the device works is.
A whole system, not a collection of parts made to work together. A synergy of effect, not a collection of bits that plug in to each other.
A thorough understanding of the methods the Romero/Muller device uses is essential - not the laws of physics...and that's where many people, including myself, are up to.

If you note, Romero did express a perplexing situation, that of quoting a rotor speed lower than a maximum for the best results. What that was, in my opinion, was about the relation of magnetic flux to energy generation.
Put a magnet nearer to a coil and you get a faster rotor under power, but remove power and the cogging severely slows the rotor. Too far away and you get a slower speed of rotor under power, but also a decrease in output. Just right and the speed is somewhere between, with the output maximised. There can be a millimeter of difference within all three conditions.

Magnet positioning is wholly important to any pulse motor. In my White Crow circuits, the Hall sensor senses and another magnet actually supplies the BEMF to the circuit. It may be easier to see with the eyes, if set up how the Romero/Muller appears to be set up..in that the trigger occurs and then an exacting point is reached following that trigger and transistor delay propagation. The coil at that point is induced and a constant is achieved, of trigger to BEMF generation. On field collapse, which itself is reliant upon the most extraction possible from the coil (coil windings, physical dimensions of the coil, properties of the wire used), the energy within the coil is not separate to the whole system. The BEMF will work seperately to the smoothed out DC. My thoughts are that the energies are very different and yet collect as a whole for the output of the device.
That's why I think the transistor properties to be of worthy note.
A batch of transistors all of the same type and even of the same case marked grade, will display different properties. They themselves cause an asymmetry to the system.
Elias, I hope i'm expanding on your thoughts
.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi folks, Hi elias, that's good stuff,

The attraction being stronger than repulsion, is the asymmetry in the system
that make the magnets drive the rotor, in my opinion. When one coil fires
asymmetry is created in the system by releasing and repulsing one magnet
thus the other magnets help drive the rotor forward, by attracting.
Another important observation of mine was regarding shorting coils with ferrite
cores. When shorting the coil in lower speeds (about 1500RPM) it cogged the
rotor much much more than higher speeds (6000 RPM). I don't have real
results at hand, but it was quite noticeable. The speed decrease was about
300 RPM at 1500 RPM, and about 60 RPM when operating at 6000RPM. It was
completely evident that speed made the reaction become too clumsy to cause
much drag on the system.

Indeed, one of Bill Mullers videos show him with a magnet and a steel ball attached and when he lets another steel ball be quickly attracted to first steel ball, the second steel ball violently repels from the first ball.
This corroborates what your saying about frequency reducing the drag on core or coil.
Right now, I have mounted 2 coil pairs so far, one drive coil pair and one generator coil pair and just rotating it by hand.
It becomes very easy to rotate when the speed is higher, It almost sounds as if it wants to take off on its own.
Will be mounting 1 more coil pair today and will make another motor test to see how it performs and generates.
Then will finish the rest of the core/coils, takes a bit of time for glue to dry, etc.
Good thoughts you've added slider.
Here's my progress so far.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us
peace love light
tyson

[totoalas]

Alternative to Magnetite ?????

Besides Ferrite core
Are there any substitute source that we can salvaged from like Slider is doing from Freecycle
Battery poles from old car batteries?????
Carbon rod from old D cell batteries?????
carbon brush in washing machines drill etc
Pencil?????
Charcoal?
Or Black sand which we have a lot HACSA beach{cantonese) or Black sand Beach in English

Slider and others hope you can help out on this

Updated quote form Konehead post 1830 in OU
right now with the RomeroUK replications, I would stick with ferrite cores, since that is what he used, and as far as I know, Bill Muller didnt have those magnets behind the cores "regauging" magnets I call them...so what worked good core-wise for Bill Muller might not works so well when you have magnets behind the cores...Bill also had very special and secret-source blacksand cores too so its not something you can even buy anywhere anyways....ferrite powder mixed with epoxy might be fun to try but probalby not worth the hassle right now.
cheers

totoalas

[Joit]

What is wrong with Magnetite?
You can buy it cheap at Ebay as Ironoxide FE3O4, about 7$ 2 Kg,
enough for couple cores. Poylester Resin is not to expansive too, you can buy at at much Hardware stores.
It is actually something like tinder from forging.

[toranarod]

Hi Rod

It is completely Ok if it makes sense to you.
This is me thinking out loud + combining what I have observed with my
experiments back in February this year which led up to an exploded rotor.
You can follow this work here: http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...e-obvious.html

The attraction being stronger than repulsion, is the asymmetry in the system
that make the magnets drive the rotor, in my opinion. When one coil fires
asymmetry is created in the system by releasing and repulsing one magnet
thus the other magnets help drive the rotor forward, by attracting.

Another important observation of mine was regarding shorting coils with ferrite
cores. When shorting the coil in lower speeds (about 1500RPM) it cogged the
rotor much much more than higher speeds (6000 RPM). I don't have real
results at hand, but it was quite noticeable. The speed decrease was about
300 RPM at 1500 RPM, and about 60 RPM when operating at 6000RPM. It was
completely evident that speed made the reaction become too clumsy to cause
much drag on the system.

I am posting all this again, to encourage people build the Muller machine. It is
real. I will post a video of my device demonstrating the power of magnet
attraction, vs magnet repulsion, as I promised.

Elias

Thank you

Yes Attraction mode supples much more torque.

a bit harder to control but its the only way to get to OU.

[john_g]

Thin Ferrite Rods

Hi

Thin ferrite rods can be got in the UK from Farnall, 4, 5, 6 & 8 mm - not to expensive:

EMC / RFI Suppression | Farnell United Kingdom

Regards
John

[totoalas]

What is wrong with Magnetite?
You can buy it cheap at Ebay as Ironoxide FE3O4, about 7$ 2 Kg,
enough for couple cores. Poylester Resin is not to expansive too, you can buy at at much Hardware stores.
It is actually something like tinder from forging.

Jolt and John
Thank you for the tip
Somebody said to use Fiberglass resin which is locally available here in Macao China
Need to order from Chemical suppliers
ill try to Check RS Hong Kong also

totoalas

YouTube - &#x202a;CP Muller gen Replication 2 210511.avi&#x202c;&rlm;

[Slider2732]

The links above are great, for peace of mind. Salvage has it's flaws and bonuses...but in my opinion can be more rewarding too.
We've heard about cores in PC power supplies, fair enough. How about now ancient 80's/90's high end hi-fi's ? Stuff that used to be considered the best and now is so much junk.
Build materials themselves can offer creative solutions, rather than having to be a conforming exact replica. An exact replica has to be just that and so the expenses can only be reduced with good deals.
However, if RomeroUK used sewing machine bobbins to wind onto, surely they are ideal for the job.

A good machine to learn of the principles first hand needn't cost a penny. Yard sales, Freecycle, something noted in a neighbours yard etc.
Purely an opinion, but, in finding a solution for a missing part that doesn't involve an order to somewhere, we can discover just how that part actually helps the machine to run.

*Edit*
Hang on !! you're in China and can't get things cheap ? lol
(had to say that)

[Farmhand]

G'day Rod and all, I just thought I would mention the Don Smith device that appears to be similar in it's coil on both side's of the rotor configuration.

Don uses neo's in the core of each side and an interupter disc. And he drive's his disc/rotor with a small DC motor. There's a diagram of how he uses the magnets in the coil core's in the PGTFED PDF.
http://9xhe3g.bay.livefilestore.com/...h-1.jpg?psid=1

http://9xhe3g.bay.livefilestore.com/...h-2.jpg?psid=1

Though his seems to by symetrical, I can't tell. And I think he uses 4000v input. Not sure about that either but the coils half on each side of the rotor seems the same. Amps one way volts the other maybe.

Anyway very impressive builds .

Cheers

[totoalas]

Winding coil Direction????

Thanks for all the response this is a great help in my build
few more Questions
Muller design Horizontal position - all coils in clockwise construction)
Winding orientation Top View
Coil 1A (Upside down) Cw facing N of rotor
Bottom Coil 1B Cw facing S of rotor
Using Top view position
My rotor using neodyne magnet( from hard disk) S and N on one(face) side glued to a magnetic shield / the bottom of the rotor magnet is N and S oriented paralell to the top

Will the coil winding be the same for both top and bottom?? or
Top CCw and bottom coil Cw USING TE NORTH TO SOUTH ORIENTATION

Thanks again for the support

totoalas

[totoalas]

Thanks Slider True everything is cheap here
Macao have only 2 electronic shops that supply ordinary consumable parts
Need to cross the border to Quindao to have the parts
They dont usually repair electronic stuff here and just throw away
thats my goldmine
Are you still on the zcrow circuit maybe you can share with us your great resuts with your tests

totoalas



*Edit*
Hang on !! you're in China and can't get things cheap ? lol
(had to say that) [/QUOTE]

[Slider2732]

Best of luck with finding supplies in Quindao
It would be fascinating to know what you do find and how things are different in China.

The White Crow circuit (see 'Pulse motor circuit - a strange effect ?' thread) is becoming a very useful tool. I want to build a full Romero/Muller, but to understand what's going on has been my drive. The fact that I couldn't get a Bedini circuit to work is the hilarity behind this design. But, they don't take long to build...tuning can easily take a day though.
Materials are a PC processor fan, 4 neo's from 2xCD-Rom drive laser assembly, 24V relay from old CRT PC monitor. The transistor can be from the PC fan circuit, Hall sensor comes from the fan. Really simple
I've posted updates on there and the latest finding is that the driving transistors themselves are very important. Run times at 4.5V from a 1F supercap, with a 3 runs charge up of 2 minutes each, have been from 17 mins on a 2N4401, down to a C1815 running for just 3mins 34. No self running on caps yet. MOSFET's no idea, but for a similar signal transistor device like this, my original thought of the low switch speed being within all transistor capabilities was flawed. Fun stuff and lots of learning going on.
The other thing has been about the Hall sensor. Positioning is really very important. Too close and the sensor can be literally dragged by the magnet and probably bust with the flux in time ? (rated normally to around 100 Tesla). Too far away and it will miss the odd transition of polarity change. If you move the sensor around while the circuit is under power, you can visibly witness the best point.
Anyway, hopefully more will be applicable as tuners begin tuning their Romero replications.

Looking forward to all of the full sized builds. Some may match or surpass the original because of the build quality being shown..which I don't think has been mentioned.

[electr0n]

my replication

photo of the assembly and rotor height adjustment, i used rigid 12mm plastic studs but have s/steel studs made if these need outchanging later.
Have everything bar the litz wire which ill make, raided computer psus for the ferrites and have constructed the hall switching per roms circuit.
You guys are doing some great work here too, really good to see

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/9...eightadj01.jpg
http://img848.imageshack.us/img848/6...ssembled01.jpg
http://img829.imageshack.us/img829/8...ssembled02.jpg