Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[yx630514]

Can not get the rotor acceleration

Hi "toranarod" "Slider2732"
I use the attached picture of the driver circuit,
Respectively on the drive coil parallel capacitor Ca and Cb. Change the value respectively: 0.22uF, 0.33uF, 0.47uF, 0.68uF, 1uF.
No-load speed respectively: 700rpm, 800rpm, 900rpm, 1000rpm, 1100rpm, 1200rpm, 1300rpm, 1400rpm, 1500rpm, 1600rpm, 1700rpm, 1800rpm, 1900rpm, 2000rpm. Try to find the resonance, But: as long as the load is connected, In any case not be able to get the rotor acceleration.

Where I really did not do right?

[Slider2732]

Hi yx,
My motors are about as simple as they can be. Just 1 transistor, that switches on and off due to the Hall sensor. The same coil is for power and collection on mine and the coil has to be positioned extremely finely to get the effect. I've managed it twice, the first time by accident (which was in the video), the second time I had nothing in place to keep the coil exactly where it was positioned.
I can imagine that very fine threaded screws, one for forward/back and one for left/right could allow the position to be found.
One thing to note - there was no capacitor on the circuit at all, for the both times I managed the 'super speed' effect.
Also, you should be able to run the setup at the same speed no matter what the voltage is that you are running at. At whatever voltage, the rotor will turn at exactly the same speed. If that does happen, then you are not far from having the placement of the coil correct.
That has been my experience, I hope toranarod can give more advice.

[toranarod]

Hi "toranarod" "Slider2732"
I use the attached picture of the driver circuit,
Respectively on the drive coil parallel capacitor Ca and Cb. Change the value respectively: 0.22uF, 0.33uF, 0.47uF, 0.68uF, 1uF.
No-load speed respectively: 700rpm, 800rpm, 900rpm, 1000rpm, 1100rpm, 1200rpm, 1300rpm, 1400rpm, 1500rpm, 1600rpm, 1700rpm, 1800rpm, 1900rpm, 2000rpm. Try to find the resonance, But: as long as the load is connected, In any case not be able to get the rotor acceleration.

Where I really did not do right?

For the sake of this discussion I am going to assume there is a certain amount of prior electronic and electrical background. It is my understanding at this point in time that there appears to be two types of phenomena that can create the effect of acceleration under load. I will refer to them as type A & type B. For this we will discuss Type A which involves acceleration under load of the drive coil and the recovery of the back EMF.
In a DC pulse motor, the type in which we are so familiar with, the drive coils perform three tasks almost simultaneously. Firstly, they generate an induced voltage created by the magnet as it passes over the core as any normal generator will do; secondly, the coil is loaded with a high current pulse delivered by the drive circuit to induce a magnetic field within the core to produce the driving force for the motor; thirdly, when this driving force is instantaneously switched off, we see this energy returned from the coil as high voltage back EMF. This provides the opportunity to use the drive stage as a drive stage and as a generator stage, a supply output. If the drive stage is carefully used as a supply out-put an increase in RPM and torque can be observed.
Before the load is attached, whether it be a 12 volt 5 watt incandescent light globe or a mains voltage 200 volt 15 watt florescent globe, a few things need to be ascertained. What is the amplitude of the induced voltage from the magnets as they pass the coil? What is the maximum potential of the back EMF? How much current can be pulled from the back EMF before it clips the peak of the wave form from the induced voltage? What is the maximum induced voltage under loaded coming out of the drive coils that does not include the back EMF? Now write that figure down, connect the globe to the out-put of the bridge rectifier as presented in the picture below and measure the voltage across the globe. The voltage present across the globe or whatever the load on your out-put may be must not fall below the induced voltage as previously recorded. You only want the globe to consume or load down the back EMF voltage, not the induced voltage, thus you need to adjust the resistance of your globe so when you load down your circuit you don’t tap the current induced by the magnets as they pass the core. A point of interest – I don’t believe that any form of resonance of capacitance and inductance plays a part in this circuit.
Just to recap, my research into this technique is still ongoing and it is complex. There appears to be optimal loads that produce optimal acceleration, given coil types and specifications; turns, Henries and so on. It is a lot more complex than is feasible to discuss here. If you do some tests based on the principles previously explained and some of the wave form diagrams presented below you will observe this phenomenon. All I have outlined here is “how” rather than “why”. I am still studying the “why”.
Type B - acceleration under load of the generator coil alone. later.

[Shadesz]

I reckon it is way past time to jump ship

I wish wattsup could employ his skills and gather the detail needed to replicate this -

YouTube - ‪Motor Magnetico Argentino (Argentinean Magnetic Motor)‬‏

At least it seems more realistic.

I don't know. Looks kinda scammy to me. Notice how the led's light up before the unit is spinning?

[toranarod]

I don't know. Looks kinda scammy to me. Notice how the led's light up before the unit is spinning?

Fixed magnet motors. Any body that has every calmed to have created one of them has never publish HOW.
Unless they document in full detail how. it is not worth worrying about.
That's was what made Romero UK motor a first. It came with full disclosure. same old same old. look what I have done I am going to be A millionaire LOL

[yx630514]

Very much - thanks Slider2732 and toranarod response.
Because my English is not good, For your response can only be roughly understand, I understand the main point is:

1) driver/generation coil position is very important, To get the rotor acceleration, Driver/generation coil requires relatively rotor magnet: front, back, left, and right adjustment.

2)The load resistance value is very important, need to adjust the size of the load resistance value and driver/generation coils coincide.

3) drive/generation coil completely do not need parallel capacitor.

My understanding correct? Please help me confirm.

PS1: @ Slider2732
How to achieve "At whatever voltage, the rotor will turn at exactly the same speed"?

PS2: @ toranarod
According to your current research, You are very likely to become millionaires.

[Slider2732]

@yx - What I have found, is that the 7 strand coils will run the motor at a fixed speed, a speed that always stays the same. If you start the motor at 6V, you can change the input voltage down to 3V and the rotor will stay at the same speed, change it up to 12V and it will also be the same. As you know, most motors will speed up with more voltage and slow down with less, so this is very different.
Also, the coil may be able to be positioned at any point you wish around the rotor and the motor will run...most motors need the coil to be in one exact place to work at all.
So, if you see those things, then the driving circuit should allow you to also experience the large increase in speed, when you set the coil at exactly the right place.
I might be wrong and another type of circuit may behave differently, but they are my findings so far
Here's my example video of running at the same speed, which I hope helps:
YouTube - ‪Romero coil, solid rotor speed 3V-12V, anywhere !‬‏
And placing the coil anywhere around the rotor (powered by a thyristor in this video):
YouTube - ‪Coil anywhere, motor keeps on running‬‏

[toranarod]

@yx - What I have found, is that the 7 strand coils will run the motor at a fixed speed, a speed that always stays the same. If you start the motor at 6V, you can change the input voltage down to 3V and the rotor will stay at the same speed, change it up to 12V and it will also be the same. As you know, most motors will speed up with more voltage and slow down with less, so this is very different.
Also, the coil may be able to be positioned at any point you wish around the rotor and the motor will run...most motors need the coil to be in one exact place to work at all.
So, if you see those things, then the driving circuit should allow you to also experience the large increase in speed, when you set the coil at exactly the right place.
I might be wrong and another type of circuit may behave differently, but they are my findings so far
Here's my example video of running at the same speed, which I hope helps:
YouTube - ‪Romero coil, solid rotor speed 3V-12V, anywhere !‬‏
And placing the coil anywhere around the rotor (powered by a thyristor in this video):
YouTube - ‪Coil anywhere, motor keeps on running‬‏

Hello Slider
Your coil ideas have opened up a few possibilities I would not have looked at.
The 7 strand Litz coil and the technique of separating and splicing the wires together have led me to look at some interesting ideas.
Great post Slider.
The coil is more effective and efficient than any other I have tried.
The question is how can this coil be improved on?

Here is the data on a 75 volt supply. Better but not as good as I would have hoped.
More test tomorrow I will increase the number of lamps on the circuit.

[erfinder]

toranarod,

Could you please clarify why you are placing the load across the capacitor in dead short fashion versus pulsing the capcitor out thorough the load?

Regards

[toranarod]

toranarod,

Could you please clarify why you are placing the load across the capacitor in dead short fashion versus pulsing the capcitor out thorough the load?

Regards

OK good Idea

I will reconfigure this for tomorrows. Just so I relay understand.
draw a quick diagram please. I just want to be sure get where you are coming from. Will test this and post data thank you.

[gyula]

Hi Rod,

I think this schematic shows how erfinder thought:
http://www.fight-4-truth.com/North%2...02%20batts.jpg

A mechanical switch is shown, either a p-channel MOSFET switch in the positive battery line or an n-channel in the negative line could be used. In your case the load is the bulb, not a battery of course.

Timing is important for the switch: when the puffer capacitor receives charge the switch must be off, and then it can be switched on with a preferably variable duty cycle till the next charging cycle begins.

Sorry to chime in...

Gyula

[Slider2732]

Chiming is good, it's given me a simple peak dumps implementation idea, whereas before I was quite stuck for a dynamically alterable automatic cap dump method

Bit of conjecture, just some thoughts, but relating to these coils:
In the Romero vids we see the rotor spin up to different speeds with different DC regulator settings. Especially the automatic recalibrations as voltages change. The system self sets up. For the system to work properly, the rotor speed has to be allowed to increase when the regulator settings go up...we are seeing a redistribution, though it all looked very magical when he notched up the voltage on the regulator and the batteryless system increased in speed. The fact may well be, that what we have is a system that would run much faster without the DC to DC converter, accelerating up to the Hall sensors switching speed ability. So every setting below full generator output ability is in fact a limiter of output ability. Or you could say that higher voltage settings allow the system to breathe more.
Perfectly aligned driver coils (speed up under load) need to sit in the system along with constant speed coils...the effect of same speed rotation allows the load to be applied, with no slow down in rotor speed. When energies dip below the abilities of the same speed coils, the speed up coils naturally take on a larger and larger percentage of running because they are not being drained..replacing the speed loss, to again balance. If a load is applied, which can in fact be in the form of a voltage limit below the full output of the system, the system coils re-equate, leading to the effect of a speed change from the speed up coils. Changes upset the balance and allow the speed up effect coils to actually perform the recalibration. The regulator will get very hot at anywhere below the reported 15V output of the system, trying to dump out extra generated energy...which we see, by Romero often touching the casing of the regulator.
The thing is, that because of the automatic calibration, the system always puts out 15V, the speed needed to do so is where we see from recent experiments the same speed rotation..the same output availability of generator coils.
Without the regulator in place, once triggered, the speed up coils would want to accelerate and keep on accelerating, which I believe was Romero's runaway condition, before the regulator was fitted to his design..
It's not that it can output from 3V up to 12V on the DC/DC regulator, it's the other way around, it's not being allowed to run at 15V.

[toranarod]

Chiming is good, it's given me a simple peak dumps implementation idea, whereas before I was quite stuck for a dynamically alterable automatic cap dump method

Bit of conjecture, just some thoughts, but relating to these coils:
In the Romero vids we see the rotor spin up to different speeds with different DC regulator settings. Especially the automatic recalibrations as voltages change. The system self sets up. For the system to work properly, the rotor speed has to be allowed to increase when the regulator settings go up...we are seeing a redistribution, though it all looked very magical when he notched up the voltage on the regulator and the batteryless system increased in speed. The fact may well be, that what we have is a system that would run much faster without the DC to DC converter, accelerating up to the Hall sensors switching speed ability. So every setting below full generator output ability is in fact a limiter of output ability. Or you could say that higher voltage settings allow the system to breathe more.
Perfectly aligned driver coils (speed up under load) need to sit in the system along with constant speed coils...the effect of same speed rotation allows the load to be applied, with no slow down in rotor speed. When energies dip below the abilities of the same speed coils, the speed up coils naturally take on a larger and larger percentage of running because they are not being drained..replacing the speed loss, to again balance. If a load is applied, which can in fact be in the form of a voltage limit below the full output of the system, the system coils re-equate, leading to the effect of a speed change from the speed up coils. Changes upset the balance and allow the speed up effect coils to actually perform the recalibration. The regulator will get very hot at anywhere below the reported 15V output of the system, trying to dump out extra generated energy...which we see, by Romero often touching the casing of the regulator.
The thing is, that because of the automatic calibration, the system always puts out 15V, the speed needed to do so is where we see from recent experiments the same speed rotation..the same output availability of generator coils.
Without the regulator in place, once triggered, the speed up coils would want to accelerate and keep on accelerating, which I believe was Romero's runaway condition, before the regulator was fitted to his design..
It's not that it can output from 3V up to 12V on the DC/DC regulator, it's the other way around, it's not being allowed to run at 15V.

thanks Gyula. this is helpful
interesting explanation Slider. I have so many mew ideas what to test next?

[toranarod]

Very much - thanks Slider2732 and toranarod response.
Because my English is not good, For your response can only be roughly understand, I understand the main point is:

1) driver/generation coil position is very important, To get the rotor acceleration, Driver/generation coil requires relatively rotor magnet: front, back, left, and right adjustment.

2)The load resistance value is very important, need to adjust the size of the load resistance value and driver/generation coils coincide.

3) drive/generation coil completely do not need parallel capacitor.

My understanding correct? Please help me confirm.

PS1: @ Slider2732
How to achieve "At whatever voltage, the rotor will turn at exactly the same speed"?

PS2: @ toranarod
According to your current research, You are very likely to become millionaires.

I think you have the idea
keeps us informed

well done

[yx630514]

Load type?

Hi toranarod:
Please tell me you use energy-saving lamp type,
AC or DC?
How much power? How much voltage?
I use 12V/5W incandescent bulbs appropriate?
Your explanation seems more appropriate for high-voltage load.

Thank you!