Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

A new motor. What shall I call it?

This has been a project I have been formulating and designing a long time.
The final idea was the Muller motor magnets of Romero.
I wanted to put them on the other side of the coils in a tight circle.
What if we wanted to eliminate the Lenz drag completely?
On my early test the coil load has no effect of the motor at all.

Thanks to slider I now have a coil to drive it.

Along time ago I built a few permanent magnet motors and noticed that if you put a complete circle of magnets very tightly together around a rotor with magnets facing it directly. There was no driving force at all also any drag force either. As long as all the magnets are pole facing the same direction attraction or repulsion it does not matter.

IF all the generator coils are on the other side of the magnets and all switching at the same time. But the circle must be complete.

I have used the Romero coil 300 turns 7 strand Litz wire on a sewing machine bobbin the same size as the magnets it is stuck to.

[Turion]

You can accomplish the same thing by putting several rotors on the same shaft, each offset from the previous rotor. You can then have coils on BOTH sides of the rotor as in the Romero design, but I think you will find that if you are precise in your arrangement, you can spin the thing by hand and there will be no cogging. I did it with ceramic magnets and also with neos. The ceramic magnet one I have video of at:
‪11Turion's Channel‬‏ - YouTube

If I was going to use as many neos as you did on my design, I'd use them on rotors to activate coils and get some bang for my buck.

[quantumuppercut]

I've just thought of something else. I've heard it mentioned before but didn't really get into then.

When the magnet pass the core, the inductance/inertia changes. This is well demonstrated by JL Naudin with the Orbo.

Understanding the Orbo principle by JL Naudin

He also mention something along the line:
"...KEY 4 : When the magnet leaves the TDC, there is a magnetic energy gain in the stator coil because the current remains constant during the increase of the inductance..."

This remind me of the gravity wheel. When moment of inertia of the wheel change by weight moving in, angular velocity increase. But does work require to change inductance/inertia? I see that when a magnet pass by the core, the core attracts the magnet. This is a gain in kinetic energy, but when it leaves the core drag it downs the same. No net energy is gained, but the inductance has decrease and increase... for free. The vid below demonstrated that in order to gain energy, the inertia/inductance has to be in correct phase.

‪The 5 craziest gymnastics skills ever!‬‏ - YouTube

The first part of the vid shows the man pull in his mass on the way up to accelerate and stretch out for gain from gravity. This is a comparison to inertia/inductance change in correct phase.

I'll spend more time thinking about this. OU and gymnastic...who would have thought... lol

[Joit]

Slider,
wanna try something more before you slip away to something else?
Like add a Resistor or Potentiometer between End L1,2,3 to Start L4,5,6.
Same between End 4,5,6 and Start L 7,8,9. Its may getting close, when you use one from these standard 0,2 Watt Resistors, that it burn,
but at this Way you can move the Phase from the single Strings a bit more..
I would like to build it and looking with a Scope on it, but not really Time right now.
Also may add Caps anywhere around.
I did do that on my SG before a while, had the 2 Coils in Serie and saw,
that the direct Connection at the Coils was not the best, and i could tune it a bit with my Pot.
It may dont do much different, because the Litz Wires are pretty equal, but maybe it change something, when you move both or all 3 Bunch of Wires a bit more out of Phase.

[yx630514]

Hi Slider2732:

You guidance suggested "but I added a 0.1uF and a 0.22uF HV capacitor between the positive rail and 1 leg of the neon"
Because the google translation is not accurate, I drew a picture, Please help me sure I correctly understand what you mean: Your proposal to 0.1uF (0.22uF) HV capacitor, Accordance picture Ca or Cb connection?

Thank you

[Slider2732]

@Joit,
Great idea
Yep i'll try that. I have a JT and reed switch based pulse motor running with one of the coils at the moment on 1.5V, but will see about adding pots in the near future. It's an intriguing thought to see what may happen with capacitance restrictions and changes. If a resistance improves in some way some running of the coil, then that added resistance could be replaced by a useful load.


@yx
Will that sort of bulb work on DC ?
In my case, the 0.32uF capacitor pair connected one end to the neon and one end to the positive supply. The other side of the neon connected directly to one of the output wires of the coil.
So, really, they are quite different circuits unfortunately.
For your circuit and from what I have learned up to now, I would advise placing about a 0.33uF capacitor in series with a coil output lead. Which one works is the one you use. If it's the wrong one, then normally the output is much less than without the capacitor fitted. Again, there seem to be tiny differences of values that we can use. Some too high and some too low.
The way that Toranarod lit his bulbs would, i'm sure, better suit your circuit. Yours and Toranarods are a few steps ahead of mine !

[Slider2732]

An experiment this evening, running a 7 strand coil from a Joule Thief.
The coil sits in parallel with the usual LED of such circuits.
It runs very well, first JT motor for me and the odd thing being that I couldn't get any other coil to work. tried half a dozen, from relays, to self winds and I have no idea why but only the 7 strander would work. I know i've seen Lidmotor run such motors, so am a bit puzzled.
Current used is 25mA.
1.2V ancient and rejuvenated Ni-CD
Transistor is a 2SD879, resistor is 1K.
The JT features a Fibonacci toroid, as I call it. 34 winds on one side, 13 on the other. The white LED is very bright indeed.
Next stage, is to use some of the Muller tricks to see what might be drawn back off the circuit.

‪Joule Thief motor - 7 strand coil‬‏ - YouTube

[gyula]

Hi Rod,

I would suggest a name: Rod's motor-generator variant

I like this setup you show in the pictures with the so many magnets next to each other, this confirms a thought that the more flux you bring in from permanent magnets the better you can come out energywise.

Regarding the drive coil(s): may I suggest to to take a look at this link that shows a kind of strong electromagnet:
How to make bedini motor overunity ???

Perhaps a cylindrical sleeve ferrite core with a cylinder Neo in its center could be tested, the length of the magnet should be less than the sleeve core length.

Do you have output measurements already on this setup I wonder.

Thanks, Gyula

This has been a project I have been formulating and designing a long time.
The final idea was the Muller motor magnets of Romero.
I wanted to put them on the other side of the coils in a tight circle.
What if we wanted to eliminate the Lenz drag completely?
On my early test the coil load has no effect of the motor at all.

Thanks to slider I now have a coil to drive it.

Along time ago I built a few permanent magnet motors and noticed that if you put a complete circle of magnets very tightly together around a rotor with magnets facing it directly. There was no driving force at all also any drag force either. As long as all the magnets are pole facing the same direction attraction or repulsion it does not matter.
....

[toranarod]

keep on working

Hello Gyula.

Thank you for your comment on my work.

I have been obsessed with the Lenz law phenomena of late and trying to find a logical way to over come it or at least reduce it.

I am building and testing many combinations of parts. Coils, Magnets, Rotors and so on.

There are many things we know about the pulse motor generators we all build.

This one part of what I propose. A ring of magnets to in a complete circle with all polls facing the same direction. Using iron core coils with correct windings and accurate switching I believe we can shield from the Lenz law affect. If the ratio of coil to magnet size is just right it will be possible to even get a small amount of acceleration.

So far the crude tests have yielded positive results.

[quantumuppercut]

Hi all,

I'd like to express my thinking on the following things:

1/ effectiveness of a motor in repulsion vs attraction
2/ inductance dynamics

Below is the graph I analyzed with the two modes. The current growth in the coil is linear for simplicity. When in attraction, current end at maximum when it approaches top dead center. This yields higher torque vs current is maximum at somewhere further away from top dead center as in repulsion mode. So I believe attraction mode is more efficient.

ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting

Inductance of a coil change relative to the position of a magnet. I find that inductance decrease when a magnet get close to the core. However, I think we can make a configuration that cause inductance to increase when a magnet get close to the core. Though not confirm, I'd like to express my thinking on it. Referring to a vid by LaFonte group.

‪LaFonteMagnetMotor1's Channel‬‏ - YouTube

I consider the inductance of the coil is the movement of the arm. The more freely it moves, the more inductance. The two magnets at the two ends can be seen as bias magnets. Suppose we have the magnets at the two ends of the core configured in north-south(NS) or SN. The core is locked tightly in that set up yielding low inductance. Suppose the two end magnets configured in NN or SS of a core, inductance is normal as no magnet , in general theory. If one is stator magnet and one is moving, the NS set up gives a decrease in inductance as the magnet approaches and the NN or SS set up gives an increase in inductance as the magnet approaches. Normally, an electromagnet would yields lesser inductance as the coil is energized. But suppose we want inductance to increase with increasing current... follow by an inductance decrease...

[toranarod]

What is the ratio?

Hello Slider

What is the ratio between you magnet face area and the coil core face area of you 7 strand litz coil we all love so much.

Or how big are your magnets and how big is you coil and the core?

best regards Rod

[MonsieurM]

Hello Gyula.

Thank you for your comment on my work.

I have been obsessed with the Lenz law phenomena of late and trying to find a logical way to over come it or at least reduce it.

I am building and testing many combinations of parts. Coils, Magnets, Rotors and so on.

There are many things we know about the pulse motor generators we all build.

This one part of what I propose. A ring of magnets to in a complete circle with all polls facing the same direction. Using iron core coils with correct windings and accurate switching I believe we can shield from the Lenz law affect. If the ratio of coil to magnet size is just right it will be possible to even get a small amount of acceleration.

So far the crude tests have yielded positive results.

I posted this yesterday but it could inspire some of you:

Slider, what if the following picture also corresponded to a combination for bedini coils as well, it would go something like, coils get pulsed in the following order:

coils 3 6 9
2 5 8
1 4 7



let me know what you think
you have

Cycles (the number combination)
Fractal patterns (the above figure)
Exponential functions (let's test it )


------

see also:http://www.energeticforum.com/147830-post235.html

[toranarod]

Nine. always 9?

OK?
its worth a try. I see what you are getting at.
Thanks

[Michael John Nunnerley]

repulsion or attraction, is that the question?

Repulsion or attraction, is that the question? well it is both, timing is ALL.

When using a multi wound coil "litze" you can have both, the lead in is what you put in power wise, the lead out is the BEMF "a kick in the back side".

By connecting your windings in the right way you use one too pull in and at "just" past TDC you use another with reverse polarity to give a push away, timing is all important, but this comes through design and is not difficult. The push away comes FREE from the BEMF, you use it to your advantage.

So to recap, you use your drive coils as both a North and South field, a negative and a positive drive, a bifiler is sufficient, one coil is powered and the other is powered by the BEMF of that drive coil but connected in reverse. What you need to do is make sure the BEMF ONLY energises the secound coil connected in reverse, this is done with a simple diode setup.

With this you will have an increase in power exactly equal to the power of the BEMF. Think about it in your mind the kick as the rotor JUST passes TDC.

This is only to help a little, more can be done with this using particular frequencies between the pull and push.

Think hard on the last paragraph, it is the ultimate motor/generator


Mike

[quantumuppercut]

Repulsion or attraction, is that the question? well it is both, timing is ALL.

When using a multi wound coil "litze" you can have both, the lead in is what you put in power wise, the lead out is the BEMF "a kick in the back side".

By connecting your windings in the right way you use one too pull in and at "just" past TDC you use another with reverse polarity to give a push away, timing is all important, but this comes through design and is not difficult. The push away comes FREE from the BEMF, you use it to your advantage.

So to recap, you use your drive coils as both a North and South field, a negative and a positive drive, a bifiler is sufficient, one coil is powered and the other is powered by the BEMF of that drive coil but connected in reverse. What you need to do is make sure the BEMF ONLY energises the secound coil connected in reverse, this is done with a simple diode setup.

With this you will have an increase in power exactly equal to the power of the BEMF. Think about it in your mind the kick as the rotor JUST passes TDC.

This is only to help a little, more can be done with this using particular frequencies between the pull and push.

Think hard on the last paragraph, it is the ultimate motor/generator


Mike

Very nice... I see it now. The collapsing field have highest repulsing current at TDC then decrease. A mirror image.