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Muller generator replication by Romerouk

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  • Important factors

    If the lenz tricking process I proposed earlier turns out to be what is happening, the type of material is only one fifth of the equation. The second is the layout of the core and coil to the magnets. The third is the magnetic absorbing potential of the core (as determined by permeability and mass). The fourth is the size of the magnetic field coming from the rotor magnets. And last, the fifth is the speed of the magnets as they approach and pass the coil/core. If any one of these five are out of tolerance the lenz trick wont work. Make sure that you do not accidentally rule one out. IE: don't determine a core material wont work, when the mass of the core material might have been what was causing the trick to not work.

    To dive deeper...
    (note: this is expanding on the lenz trick theory)

    Parameter one, type of core material
    The type of core is important because you need a core with enough magnetic susceptibility to get the magnetic field from the rotor magnet to jump past the copper coil on approach. This allows the magnet to approach the coil without triggering lenz resistance. Mu-metal and some steels seem to work while ferrite doesn't. Knowing this we may be able to determine a permeability or susceptibility tolerance. Does anyone know of a good source for the magnetic susceptibility numbers for various materials?

    Parameter two, coil/core design
    This is also a critical part of a lenz tricking system because the design must encourage the gap jump upon approach. If the core is not in the correct position in relation to the coil, even if you have the correct core material, you will not get the field to jump the coil and thus will experience lenz drag. It is noted that the farther the core sticks out from the coil the easier it is to make the jump. However, this sacrifices the efficiency of the coil and thus the middle ground must be determined. Another thing that may help would be to decrease the distance that the core extrudes past the coil, but flatten the tip out more, so the core is shaped more like a bobbin than a bar. This may encourage a gap jump while allowing us to keep the coil more close to the magnet. This design idea needs testing.

    Parameter three, magnetic absorbing potential of the core
    There is probably a better word for this, but it represents how much magnetic field can be absorbed by the cor before it gets saturated. This potential determines the required speed of the rotor magnet. If the absorbing potential is small, the core will saturate quickly and there will be little time for the magnet to reach TDC. If the mass of the core is larger (thus the absorbing potential is increased) the core will take longer to hit saturation and thus allow the rotor magnet more time to reach tdc. Remember, this theory assumes that if the magnet is at or near TDC when the core saturates, the magnetic field will now return to the copper coil, and thus push against the rotor magnet, BUT the magnet will be on its way away form the coil, and thus will be 'pushed' into acceleration. (I think this is what Rod is experiencing!) Anyways, the bigger the mass of the core = the bigger the absorbing potential = the more time you have until the core saturates = the slower (less rpm) you need to still achieve the lenz trick.

    Parameter four, the size of the magnetic field coming from the rotor magnets.
    This is critical because it determines the distance that the magnet must travel from 'gap jump' to tdc. The larger the magnetic field, the larger the distance needed to travel (which means a faster rpm is required, or a larger absorbing potential in the core). The smaller the field, the less distance is required, thus less rpm and/or a smaller core required.

    Parameter five, the speed of the magnet as it approaches/passes the coil.
    This is the last variable in the lenz trick theory. The speed of the magnet is determined by RPM times circumference of the rotor. It requires a sweet spot that is determined by all of the other variables. The magnetic field size related to the coil/core design related to coil absorbing potential of core determine the time required to get from approach to tdc. By using this time and your rotor circumference you will be able to determine the required RPM to get lenz tricking to actually accelerate and propel your generator!

    I start a math cram course at school this week (trying to skip three semesters of math in a week, wish me luck!) So I might not be to involved but I will be lurking around here reading that is for sure! You guys are doing great work! Keep it up!
    Trust your own instinct. Your mistakes might as well be your own, instead of someone else's ~BW~ It's kind of fun to do the impossible ~WD~ From now on, I'll connect the dots my own way ~BW~ If I shall be like him, who shall be like me? ~LR~ Had I not created my whole world, I would certainly have died in other people’s ~AN~

    Comment


    • It is not simple until we find it.

      Originally posted by ewizard View Post
      I wish OU was that simple - 2 coils, 4 diodes and a couple caps is all he's using.
      Humility, an important property for a COP>1 system.
      http://blog.hexaheart.org

      Comment


      • Rod,

        Can you please post the exact detail about the setups which showed signs of overunity? I mean the setups that were running faster than when no coil is present. Those are the designs that we should explore thoroughly and model them out. You can increase the torque of your rotor by simply adding more shorted or loaded coils, so to speak.

        @All
        I think that we should document our tests on an independent thread so that browsing the data from the tests becomes easier, and it would help us model the effect to scale it up or increase it.

        Thanks
        Elias
        Humility, an important property for a COP>1 system.
        http://blog.hexaheart.org

        Comment


        • Shadesz Important factor

          “Shadesz

          Important factors

          Does anyone know of a good source for the magnetic susceptibility numbers for various materials?”



          Thank you a good observation on the parameters

          Please include in your parameters the Core to Coil area ratio as one of the main parameters.

          Hope this PDF file provides the required magnetic susceptibility information

          http://www-d0.fnal.gov/hardware/cal/...lementmagn.pdf

          Comment


          • Wow, thanks, The maximum susceptibility related to Iron is:
            Iron(III) chloride hexahydrate FeCl3·6H2O +15250

            Now WHAT IS THIS?
            Gadolinium (350 K) Gd +185000

            It seems to me that it is the God[olinium] of Magnetism!
            Humility, an important property for a COP>1 system.
            http://blog.hexaheart.org

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Shadesz View Post
              Parameter three, magnetic absorbing potential of the core
              There is probably a better word for this, but it represents how much magnetic field can be absorbed by the core before it gets saturated.

              Parameter four, the size of the magnetic field coming from the rotor magnets.
              Magnetic permeability or Relative permeability of materials
              Free air 1
              Water 0.999991 (Diamagnetic)
              Bismuth 0.99983 (Diamagnetic)
              Mild steel 500 - 8000
              Silicon steel 7000 - 12000
              Magnetic stainless steel 500
              Pure iron 15000
              Hiperco 3500
              Permadur 7000
              Supermalloy 50000
              Mumetal 80000

              Mild Steel is graded on a curve. I cannot find an example.


              And Parameter 4 is the "Flux Density" of a magnet. Thats what you are looking for.

              Matt

              Comment


              • magnetic susceptibility = magnetic permeability

                oops posted too late

                Comment


                • Yesterday I finished my new rotor: 6 x N52 Neos NN. Now the tricky part: generator coils. I am going to go with 50/50 magnetite powder/pure iron dust mixed with resin for the cores and see what happens...
                  Attached Files
                  “ THE PERSON WHO SAYS IT CANNOT BE DONE SHOULD NOT INTERRUPT THE PERSON DOING IT ! ”

                  Comment


                  • Hello

                    i think that we are building our coils wrongly. To achive good amount of inductance we do need to shorten our coil length, because the inductance formula for an air core coil is:


                    The permeability of the core material gets multiplied by it.
                    Romero's coils were pretty short about 15mm in length, and had about 300 turns of wire. The cores were about 6mm in diameter, which take a pretty short time to traverse by the magnet. According to my calculations, the resistance of his coils must be about 0.7 ohms, pretty low for a coil of 300 turns. So you get a good time lag and phase shift the make it self run. That is why he was able to get the effect in a pretty low RPM.

                    Elias

                    Edit: you can calculate the inductance for your coil here: Inductance of a solenoid
                    Last edited by elias; 08-23-2011, 03:08 PM.
                    Humility, an important property for a COP>1 system.
                    http://blog.hexaheart.org

                    Comment


                    • Just incase it hasnt been posted in the thread already, I do remember reading that Mullers cores were mixed and placed into the mould with a strong magnet at each end to align the particles as it dried. I also believe he wound some of his coils while the cores were still wet and the first layer would sink slightly into the core itself.

                      Just a heads up for those who may be mixing powders with resins.

                      Regards
                      "Once you've come to the conclusion that what what you know already is all you need to know, then you have a degree in disinterest." - John Dobson

                      Comment


                      • Hi,

                        This is my first message here. I am getting very interested about the Muller motor and its replications. One month ago, I started looking at the Leon Raoul Hatem over-unity motor, and I started building it, but I'd like to look at this Muller motor at the same time. I ordered some parts but I still miss the coils.

                        Have any of you tried iron dust/iron powder cores. I think I saw it mentioned it somewhere. (Sorry, I don't have the courage to dig for that in all the pages of this thread)

                        Do you have any idea where to find suitable iron dust cores that can be shipped worldwide? And shops selling Litz wire. it seems very specialized products and only manufacturers seem to order them.

                        I calculated that if I used the Romero setup, I'd need approximately 230 meters of wire. How much did you need? I think I might try with less coils, getting the full setup seems expansive.

                        thanks,

                        I'll be back sharing my findings,
                        Meryl

                        Comment


                        • great calculator

                          Originally posted by elias View Post
                          Hello

                          i think that we are building our coils wrongly. To achive good amount of inductance we do need to shorten our coil length, because the inductance formula for an air core coil is:


                          The permeability of the core material gets multiplied by it.
                          Romero's coils were pretty short about 15mm in length, and had about 300 turns of wire. The cores were about 6mm in length, which take a pretty short time to traverse by the magnet. According to my calculations, the resistance of his coils must be about 0.7 ohms, pretty low for a coil of 300 turns. So you get a good time lag and phase shift the make it self run. That is why he was able to get the effect in a pretty low RPM.

                          Elias

                          Edit: you can calculate the inductance for your coil here: Inductance of a solenoid
                          some very good work going on here.

                          I was able to get some good results today at 2600 RPM. I lowered the drive voltage to 25 volts. Its time to go for it, as they say put up or shut up
                          Started the rewiring for a loop back test. just making new coils. your coil calculator very timely Thank you

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by meryl.anny View Post
                            Hi,

                            This is my first message here. I am getting very interested about the Muller motor and its replications. One month ago, I started looking at the Leon Raoul Hatem over-unity motor, and I started building it, but I'd like to look at this Muller motor at the same time. I ordered some parts but I still miss the coils.

                            Have any of you tried iron dust/iron powder cores. I think I saw it mentioned it somewhere. (Sorry, I don't have the courage to dig for that in all the pages of this thread)

                            Do you have any idea where to find suitable iron dust cores that can be shipped worldwide? And shops selling Litz wire. it seems very specialized products and only manufacturers seem to order them.

                            I calculated that if I used the Romero setup, I'd need approximately 230 meters of wire. How much did you need? I think I might try with less coils, getting the full setup seems expansive.

                            thanks,

                            I'll be back sharing my findings,
                            Meryl
                            Hello and welcome to the thread.

                            I have wound Romero coils and I am sure. you don't need 230 meter.

                            He used sewing machine bobbins 300 turns 7 strand

                            Do you mean for all the coils? oop's.

                            your Wire HERE
                            http://wires.co.uk/acatalog/st_wire.html




                            Last edited by toranarod; 08-23-2011, 12:42 PM.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by elias View Post
                              ....
                              Romero's coils were pretty short about 15mm in length, and had about 300 turns of wire. The cores were about 6mm in length, which take a pretty short time to traverse by the magnet.
                              ....
                              Hi Elias,

                              You may wish to check Romero's cores data, he used an OD=6mm with 15mm length ferrite cores taken from PC power supplies. So his cores length were the same as his coils length.

                              Thanks,
                              Gyula

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by elias View Post
                                Hello

                                i think that we are building our coils wrongly. To achive good amount of inductance we do need to shorten our coil length, because the inductance formula for an air core coil is:


                                The permeability of the core material gets multiplied by it.
                                Romero's coils were pretty short about 15mm in length, and had about 300 turns of wire. The cores were about 6mm in length, which take a pretty short time to traverse by the magnet. According to my calculations, the resistance of his coils must be about 0.7 ohms, pretty low for a coil of 300 turns. So you get a good time lag and phase shift the make it self run. That is why he was able to get the effect in a pretty low RPM.

                                Elias

                                Edit: you can calculate the inductance for your coil here: Inductance of a solenoid
                                This is why it is very interesting Romero used Ferrite cores YES?
                                this is the bit I just don't get?
                                Maybe he only said Ferrite because this was what was going to stop all replication dead in there tracks? He did say only a few would do it.

                                Comment

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