Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[marxist]

orientation of laminations

I have tested this [the orientation of the core-laminations], the best position is the flat position, if you rotate it 90 degrees you will notice that it will start to drag.

Hi Elias,
thank you for the information, that the orientation of the laminations does have an effect.
When you found out about that, did you also try orientations between "flat" and "upright"? That is: did you also test other orientations like 30 degrees and 45 degrees?

Thanks

[meryl.anny]

Hi, can we focus this thread on the Muller motor ..?

I ordered everything, and now I just have to wait until everything arrives. I'm just missing the litz wire which I'll order today from wires.co.uk - specialist in craft wire, knitted craft wire, silver wire, enamelled copper, resistance wires, stainless steel, plated wires and many more!. I found somewhere else that 1lb gives me approximately 1000ft. So i hope 500g will give me a bit less than 600m.

Hi

Anyway. What I think that we should take into consideration for replicating Romero's device is:

1- The magnets must be the same direction. N-N or S-S no alternations. This is one important aspect.

Isn't there a Muller motor that have alternations? I thought they could be useful to avoid the coild changing too often the current direction. I didn't plan to alternate though.

2- The distance between two consecutive magnets must be no more than one magnet a part. This is also very important.

Seems logical, but where did you heard of that?
Thanks for pointing that out, I didn't think of it. So if you don't have many magnets, don't try to get to huge rotor as the magnets would then be sparse.

3- The coils must be more flat. The length being about one half its diameter. This makes the coil get more inductance for the lesser resistance.

agree completely

4- We must draw as much as current as possible from the coils. Using a high current DC-DC converter as he has used.

Do you think any kind of DC-DC converter would do ?
To get results, we must put a load anyway.

5- The resistance of our coils be as low as possible.

yes

6- There is a trade off between the inductance of the coil and the resistance. Sticking to 300 turns of wire as he has proposed.

Time constant of a LR circuit is L/R

We want the highest time constant possible. A high time constant enables to turn at relatively low speeds. So, big L and low R.

7- Using the strongest magnets we can obtain. Preferably more thick.

The strongest, the better

8- Using proper core material: ferrite, or laminated Iron, or mu metal or magnetite. The core material diameter being a bit less than the diameter of the magnets.

Low hysteresis core, with a high magnetic permeability.

Why high magnetic permeability, wouldn't that increase Lenz drag (if we didn't manage to get Lenz help us?)

[qvision]

2- The distance between two consecutive magnets must be no more than one magnet a part. This is also very important.

Please correct me if I missed something.

Elias

I disagree with that point. If the magnets were no more than the diameter of one magnet apart then the triggering mechanism (hall effect sensor) wouldn't see any change in the magnetic field and the drive circuit wouldn't fire.

@meryl

If 1lb of wire gives you 1000 feet then 500g (which is 1lb) won't give you a bit less than 600 metres (which is over 1900 feet).

The wires.co.uk site tells you how many metres per kilo of each wire type on their site, so you shouldn't have to look elsewhere to find out.

If you are in the UK this might be generally helpful, it's my list of UK suppliers :

My recommended UK suppliers.


DC.

[toranarod]

Hi

I saw a UFO tonight. I was in total amazement, it is different from seeing a video of a UFO.

Anyway. What I think that we should take into consideration for replicating Romero's device is:

1- The magnets must be the same direction. N-N or S-S no alternations. This is one important aspect.

2- The distance between two consecutive magnets must be no more than one magnet a part. This is also very important.

3- The coils must be more flat. The length being about one half its diameter. This makes the coil get more inductance for the lesser resistance.

4- We must draw as much as current as possible from the coils. Using a high current DC-DC converter as he has used.

5- The resistance of our coils be as low as possible.

6- There is a trade off between the inductance of the coil and the resistance. Sticking to 300 turns of wire as he has proposed.

7- Using the strongest magnets we can obtain. Preferably more thick.

8- Using proper core material: ferrite, or laminated Iron, or mu metal or magnetite. The core material diameter being a bit less than the diameter of the magnets.

Please correct me if I missed something.

Elias

Hello Elias

I agree with most of whats on the list just not sold on Ferrite.
I Just cannot get the same results with any other core materials as I do with MU metal. Once you tried MU there's no going back.

I have ordered Iron Oxide - Fe3O4 I need to make the cores to the exact Dimensions I cannot do that with MU metal.

In the mean time have completely dismantled my Romero UK motor replica.
ready for a complete refit. I am looking for a separate drive motor or external system I want all 9 coils as generator coils, for gen power. This was one of Romero's recommendations. the other need is speed.

[meryl.anny]

2- The distance between two consecutive magnets must be no more than one magnet a part. This is also very important.

I disagree with that point. If the magnets were no more than the diameter of one magnet apart then the triggering mechanism (hall effect sensor) wouldn't see any change in the magnetic field and the drive circuit wouldn't fire.

Don't you think the hall sensor could still detect a change, and if placed sufficiently apart from the rotor, it could still detect a change?

Why would that be important to have the magnets close to each other?

8- Using proper core material: ferrite, or laminated Iron, or mu metal or magnetite. The core material diameter being a bit less than the diameter of the magnets.

I think Romero had 6mm diameter cores and 20mm diameter magnets. isn't that more than a bit less than the diameter of the magnets?

@meryl

If 1lb of wire gives you 1000 feet then 500g (which is 1lb) won't give you a bit less than 600 metres (which is over 1900 feet).

The wires.co.uk site tells you how many metres per kilo of each wire type on their site, so you shouldn't have to look elsewhere to find out.

If you are in the UK this might be generally helpful, it's my list of UK suppliers :

My recommended UK suppliers.

Thank you for the correction. I had the incorrect conversion of 1000ft that gives 304.8m ... And as you can guess with my lack of knowledge of UK units, I'm not in the UK
I didn't found in wires.co.uk where it gave the conversion between weight and length.

Anyway, 500g is enough still.

Meryl

[elias]

Hi Elias,
thank you for the information, that the orientation of the laminations does have an effect.
When you found out about that, did you also try orientations between "flat" and "upright"? That is: did you also test other orientations like 30 degrees and 45 degrees?

Thanks

You're welcome.
I suppose that the minimum drag is at flat position, but I'll test it in different angles.

[elias]

2- The distance between two consecutive magnets must be no more than one magnet a part. This is also very important.


Don't you think the hall sensor could still detect a change, and if placed sufficiently apart from the rotor, it could still detect a change?

Why would that be important to have the magnets close to each other?

8- Using proper core material: ferrite, or laminated Iron, or mu metal or magnetite. The core material diameter being a bit less than the diameter of the magnets.

I think Romero had 6mm diameter cores and 20mm diameter magnets. isn't that more than a bit less than the diameter of the magnets?

Meryl

Hi Meryl,
Welcome here.
Magnets must not be so far from each other, because, when the acceleration effect kicks in, there are two phases:
1- When the magnet approaches the coil.
2- When the magnet leaves the coil.
In Phase 1, the magnet spacing does not matter.
In phase 2, Lenz will start attracting the magnet that is leaving the coil, the delay will cause it to attract a bit late, so that the next magnet comes by and gets attracted, so that it causes acceleration. See my point?

I may not be right about the diameter of the magnet to the core, and yes Romero's magnet diameter was about three times as large as the core diameter.

I don't know the specs of Romero's DC-DC converter, But I think that the lower the input voltage, the better it will be.

Elias

[elias]

Hello Elias

I agree with most of whats on the list just not sold on Ferrite.
I Just cannot get the same results with any other core materials as I do with MU metal. Once you tried MU there's no going back.

I have ordered Iron Oxide - Fe3O4 I need to make the cores to the exact Dimensions I cannot do that with MU metal.

Hello

Can you post the exact spec, at which you could achieve more RPM, even more than when no coil is present? I think that is very important to this work, so that we could replicate what you could achieve.

Elias

[toranarod]

Hello

Can you post the exact spec, at which you could achieve more RPM, even more than when no coil is present? I think that is very important to this work, so that we could replicate what you could achieve.

Elias

MU Metal Core or Iron core ?

The MU metal is very defined set of specs.
The data you are requesting?
All Specification.? I have already posted some of this information.
What are the specs you are looking for specifically.

[scratchrobot]

Hi

I saw a UFO tonight. I was in total amazement, it is different from seeing a video of a UFO.

Anyway. What I think that we should take into consideration for replicating Romero's device is:

1- The magnets must be the same direction. N-N or S-S no alternations. This is one important aspect.

2- The distance between two consecutive magnets must be no more than one magnet a part. This is also very important.

3- The coils must be more flat. The length being about one half its diameter. This makes the coil get more inductance for the lesser resistance.

4- We must draw as much as current as possible from the coils. Using a high current DC-DC converter as he has used.

5- The resistance of our coils be as low as possible.

6- There is a trade off between the inductance of the coil and the resistance. Sticking to 300 turns of wire as he has proposed.

7- Using the strongest magnets we can obtain. Preferably more thick.

8- Using proper core material: ferrite, or laminated Iron, or mu metal or magnetite. The core material diameter being a bit less than the diameter of the magnets.

Please correct me if I missed something.

Elias

Yes you missed something, Romero had 2 wires going down the table. I asked him several times about it but no answer. You can read all about it on his forum at UnderService.Org - Index

Regards

[qvision]

@ Elias

Thanks for clarifying the need for closer magnet spacing.

[RAMSET]

Perhaps another thread Now?

In Responce to post 1366 { http://www.energeticforum.com/153399-post1366.html }

This Mini Dynamo is making lots of Builders quite curious [some very skilled builders].

Another Take on the Mans [builder] Printed text Here

Romerouk's Muller Replication

Chet
PS
I am in complete agreement that understanding this Wee Beasty can help the effort "Here"!!

[vidbid]

Litz Wire per RomeroUK

"The results at that time(no load): normal wire output was 9.2 volts
stranded wire output was 12.3
since then I have always used stranded for most of my coils"

wires.co.uk : Stranded Enamelled Copper Wire
7 X 0.125MM SOLDERABLE STRAND EN.Cu = 0.875mm
Ref: ST01250007-500

[scratchrobot]

wires.co.uk : Stranded Enamelled Copper Wire
7 X 0.125MM SOLDERABLE STRAND EN.Cu = 0.875mm
Ref: ST01250007-500

Maybe Romero made a deal with wires.co.uk ?
They sold a lot of wires since the self running video!

[marxist]

...I suppose that the minimum drag is at flat position, but I'll test it in different angles.

Hi Elias,
I appreciate that you will try to establish more facts about the effect of the orientation of the core-laminations.

I guess you can turn your cores to any desired offset?

So I would like to mention something:
I think that a '45 degree orientation' will show a different effect from a '135 degree orientation'. Both are slanted but kind of opposite to each other. And I think this is important, because surely the direction of the rotor spin has to be considered.
I would be curious whether you can measure a clear difference between the two; regarding the effect on speed.