Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

Here's a table of recomended Litz wire operating frequencies by thickness:


60 HZ - 1 KHZ 28 AWG

1 KHZ - 10 KHZ 30 AWG

10 KHZ - 20 KHZ 33 AWG

20 KHZ - 50 KHZ 36 AWG

50 KHZ - 100 KHZ 38 AWG

100 KHZ - 200 KHZ 40 AWG

200 KHZ - 350 KHZ 42 AWG

350 KHZ - 850 KHZ 44 AWG

850 KHZ - 1.4 MHZ 46 AWG

Here we see confirmation of my point that there is no reduced resistance per unit length for a given diameter:

"In reality, the real advantage of Litz wire is NOT reduced resistance per unit length for a given diameter. The advantage is less slope in resistance with frequency and reduced eddy current when the conductor is in a multi-layer coil or transformer. The individual strands are like laminations in a transformer core, and below a certain frequency they greatly reduce eddy currents by decreasing the "short circuit" path distance for magnetic flux induced currents that are not in the normal current flow direction."

There's no advantage at all to operating 32 Awg Litz wire below the 10 KHz range over solid wire of the same thickness and length.

On the subject of Litz Wire. It is a high frequency applications wire this is true
and these motors do not run or switch at theses frequency's.
If we Keep going back to excepted laws of physics while we are designing
and testing theses devices. Then what are we doing here in the first place
after all OU is impossible right?

I have been studying pulse motor for some many years.
you need to look outside the box.

It is already showing signs that Romero was on to soothing.

[synchro]

Litz.

Mopozco already has a Muller type dynamo self runner that he has wrapped with solid wire. Lidmotor and Skycollection are useing it, along with Whoopjump, who got tired of waiting for it. At worst it seems like it works about as well as solid wire, but any real distinct advantage at these low frequencies still remains to be demonstrated conclusively. It's probably not worth stalling your build up waiting for a delayed delivery on. Litz just dosen't appear to be a critical factor at this point!

[quantumuppercut]

Thanks rod,

No worry. I have to think about this some more too. 1 Henry is huge. I'm missing something.

QU

[blochwall]

Hi All,

this is getting very exciting!

I've been watching this whole forum for some time now, but unfortunately I'm not
experienced with electronics and that has stupidly stopped me from attempting to build
anything. So now I intend to change that.

I thought the best way I could help out right now, considering my lack of electronics
experience, is to start creating a list of stuff required for the build and corresponding sources in England as I'm currently sourcing it myself

Although this is not a comprehensive list as yet (far, far from it), I will keep editing this post until it is. I will mark all the links EN, if anyone would like to add their countries
source links then just send me a PM and i'd be happy to add them.

One of the main reasons i'm doing this is because I'm struggling to know what I need to buy for this build (I need to buy everything!). so if you guys know of things that need to be added, or where I can find some info (i'll also trawl through the OU thread aswell), especially all the electrical bits, please send me a PM.

Structure

Stator plates
2 x Acrylic sheets - 250mm x 250mm x 12mm
EN - 12mm Clear Perspex Cut to Size - Custom Made Acrylics & Woods

Rotor plate
1 x Tufnol IP/13 Sheet 300x300x10mm (better then PVC for Mechanical strength/high RPMs)
EN - Engineering Plastics, Nylon, Acetal, PTFE, Tufnol Rod & Sheet

Rotor Bearing
1 x Old western digital HDD - has a housed flange bearing. 25mm outside Diameter
EN - Ebay - Western Digital HDD Internal

Threaded Bar and Nuts
2 x M10 Threaded Bar Rod Studding - Pack of 3 - BZP - 200mm x 10mm. Allthreaded Mild Steal Bar and,
4 x M10 Wing Nuts - BZP - 10mm - 5 Pack M10 Wing Nuts - BZP


Coils

Coil Formers (bobbins)
18 x PVC Fabricated Formers - 26mm Diamiter, 10mm height 6mm core.
>>>Add Source<<<

Litz Wire
1 x 500g spool of 7 x 0.126mm Litz Wire = 573m. 18m needed for each coil. 18 coils x 18m = 324m
EN - Scientific Wire Company

Ferrite Coil Cores
18 x Choke w/6 hole ferrite core,3A 920ohm - 6mm x 10mm (not sure about this one?)
EN - Choke w/6 hole ferrite core,3A 920ohm

Or, if you want to try something in place of the ferrite cores which might be better
Magnetite Coil Cores
1 x 500g High performance epoxy resin kit
EN - High Performance Casting Epoxy

1 x 1kg Magnetite Powder(Fe3O4)
EN - 1kg Magnetite

Magnets

Neodymium Disk Magnets
18 x Neodymium Disk Magnets - 20mm x 10mm
EN - Neodymium Disk Magnets

Nylon Washers (for biasing magnet)
1 x 50 Nylon Washers 23 mm O/D X M6 X 1mm
Nylon Washers 23mm x 1mm

BW

[Lidmotor]

Still working with testing unit

@All
I am still working with a testing unit to try and understand what might be happening in the Muller. I have not come to any conclusions but today I did get my "prototype" to accept the generated energy back into the front end and keep running. Usually when I have tried this it stalls the motor or just drains the super capacitor down very fast.
Here it is running closed loop on a 20Farad / 2.7 volt super cap filled to 3 volts. The amp draw is still about 20 to 30 mA so this doesn't mean much but at least the idea of returning the OUT to the IN can be done on this dynamo. This unit has only half the coils installed.

YouTube - &#x202a;Second Muller Testing unit running on a capacitor --closed loop setup.ASF&#x202c;&rlm;

Everybody is busy working on this thing I know but I have not heard of a "self-running" replication so far. I still think that it may be possible but it is not going to be easy and we have to account for the "rules" that are being broken. The energy to run this has to come from somewhere. If we get one to work ----someone will have to expalin how it is possible.

Lidmotor

[Farmhand]

@All
I am still working with a testing unit to try and understand what might be happening in the Muller. I have not come to any conclusions but today I did get my "prototype" to accept the generated energy back into the front end and keep running. Usually when I have tried this it stalls the motor or just drains the super capacitor down very fast.
Here it is running closed loop on a 20Farad / 2.7 volt super cap filled to 3 volts. The amp draw is still about 20 to 30 mA so this doesn't mean much but at least the idea of returning the OUT to the IN can be done on this dynamo. This unit has only half the coils installed.

YouTube - &#x202a;Second Muller Testing unit running on a capacitor --closed loop setup.ASF&#x202c;&rlm;

Everybody is busy working on this thing I know but I have not heard of a "self-running" replication so far. I still think that it may be possible but it is not going to be easy and we have to account for the "rules" that are being broken. The energy to run this has to come from somewhere. If we get one to work ----someone will have to expalin how it is possible.

Lidmotor

I have some amusing ramblings written down with picture's, that may help explain "some extra" energy, but I don't really want to post them in this thread. Maybe someone should start a "Power Paradox" thread or something. I don't want to make clutter post's here. I suppose this is one. oops.

Cheers

[Web000x]

I have heard of people violating Lenz's Law on this forum. I have even seen good videos that show people putting a load on the generator coils and the rotor speeding up.

I cannot experimentally verify this yet. But I think elias has a thread dedicated to his former machine (now broken) that showed a violation of Lenz' law. Maybe he can shed some light on this because I think it is the secret to this replication.

I found a document that mathematically explains the Lenz's Law violation. I cannot remember where I found it, but It appears that it might have some merit to it. The author's email is at the beginning of the document. Again, I haven't experimentally tested anything.

It seems to me that this whole mystery of this device is in biasing the cores correctly.

Dave

[toranarod]

Hi All,

this is getting very exciting!

I've been watching this whole forum for some time now, but unfortunately I'm not
experienced with electronics and that has stupidly stopped me from attempting to build
anything. So now I intend to change that.

I thought the best way I could help out right now, considering my lack of electronics
experience, is to start creating a list of stuff required for the build and corresponding sources in England as I'm currently sourcing it myself

Although this is not a comprehensive list as yet (far, far from it), I will keep editing this post until it is. I will mark all the links EN, if anyone would like to add their countries
source links then just send me a PM and i'd be happy to add them.

One of the main reasons i'm doing this is because I'm struggling to know what I need to buy for this build (I need to buy everything!). so if you guys know of things that need to be added, or where I can find some info (i'll also trawl through the OU thread aswell), especially all the electrical bits, please send me a PM.






BW

Looks like you got most of the parts needed to make the motor to a compete stage. you will know what else you will need when you get there.

I have done this before and there are still little things that I am chasing to make it better. Things like wire connectors standoff plugs and switches glue
double sided tape and so on. you could never cover it all before you start.

good luck

[ABCStore]

Hi, guys.

I'll give you three clues of how to build no-Lentz generator:

1. There should be 2 coils per magnet.
2. Magnets on the disk alternate (N-S-N-S etc)
3. Coils work much more effective if built cone-shaped.

ABC

[minoly]

@All
I am still working with a testing unit to try and understand what might be happening in the Muller. I have not come to any conclusions but today I did get my "prototype" to accept the generated energy back into the front end and keep running. Usually when I have tried this it stalls the motor or just drains the super capacitor down very fast.
Here it is running closed loop on a 20Farad / 2.7 volt super cap filled to 3 volts. The amp draw is still about 20 to 30 mA so this doesn't mean much but at least the idea of returning the OUT to the IN can be done on this dynamo. This unit has only half the coils installed.

YouTube - &#x202a;Second Muller Testing unit running on a capacitor --closed loop setup.ASF&#x202c;&rlm;

Everybody is busy working on this thing I know but I have not heard of a "self-running" replication so far. I still think that it may be possible but it is not going to be easy and we have to account for the "rules" that are being broken. The energy to run this has to come from somewhere. If we get one to work ----someone will have to expalin how it is possible.

Lidmotor

Ok,
no one is going to ask? I'll ask

How'd you do it Lid, how'd you do it ?

no, seriously. How did you close the loop w/o the DC 2 DC?
I wasn't going to start any replication because we have too many things going on as it is, but this closing of the loop thing has my attention.

Is it that straight forward just the ckt as is looped back to the primary, just like the Bedini-Cole switch? did you modify the driving switch to be something like the Bedini-Cole? the simple placement of your LED diode?

the other part that has my attention is when you say, you know why the load was important... WHY?
Is this also like JB's stuff where the load/impedance is part of the tuning, or simpler than that?
sorry for the questions - NICE work

I'm not sure if this has been talked about.
did Romero close the loop w/ the driving ckt only then power the load with the dynamo?
or did he send all the energy right back to the primary and then put the load on the primary?
This is important because on the latter, which is how the drawing on the PDF file has it, the generator does not see a load, which is how JB runs his stuff right...

or perhaps there is a 3rd - 4th I am not considering.
Thanks,
Patrick

[redrichie]

Patrick,
As far as I can tell, all is going to the cap then to the converter then closing the loop. In the original. Ill leave it to Lid to explain his. Which is very nice even in its present configuration
Though a few have a slightly running motor Lid is the first to experiment and show us neat stuff. Lasersaber has an awesome replication that is beginning to glow a automotive light. But no data yet. Woppy"s is starting to show data on a promising build. Toranarod's is in the wings about to bust loose also. And as usual Clanzer has a stunning rig in the making. Fully adjustable...well everything!!
Im still gathering parts. I have 10 coils wound. I think I will test them since I LItzed them myself and it is a larger diameter wire than the original. If not ill try to find a thinner ga wire.

[synchro]

@ lidmotor,

"Everybody is busy working on this thing I know but I have not heard of a "self-running" replication so far. I still think that it may be possible but it is not going to be easy and we have to account for the "rules" that are being broken. The energy to run this has to come from somewhere. If we get one to work ----someone will have to expalin how it is possible."

Lidmotor[/QUOTE]

Check this video out from Mopozco:

YouTube - &#x202a;Mopozco's Channel&#x202c;&rlm;

[Web000x]

Check this video out from Mopozco:

YouTube - &#x202a;Mopozco's Channel&#x202c;&rlm;

A quote from Mopozco's Youtube video:

to make sure the meters're showing right readings in previous video have changed the motor's design -- coils-magnets arrangement and heavier light, but on the same principle; meters still showing cop^1 readings and motor's running on supercap with power source disconnected
(but no worries yet, not for long - only for couple hours)

I am not sure if this is a true self running motor. I think the energy transfer exponent is still less than 1.

That video is unclear to me..

Dave

[Lidmotor]

Closing the loop

Patrick I am not sure why I got that to work but it may have to do with the several things.
First-- the generator part of this is out of phase with the drive so maybe the two are not fighting each other. Remember that what I showed in the video was NOT a self-runner. All it was meant to show was that closing the loop didn't kill the motor. The diodes in the bridges might be a factor also.

Second---the generator was putting out far less power than was being consumed out of the cap so maybe the supercap was just saying, "Hey. I don't care what you are doing over there generator. I'm going to run the motor and you can help if you want. I don't really care." Maybe when the balance shifts to where the generator starts putting out MORE energy than the the motor is using (lets assume that it actually happens) then the cap says, " Hey generator don't get in my face and try to do my job. Ease up. I can't take what you are giving me." Maybe that is why Romero had to use the voltage regulator. He stated that when he tried to connect the output directly back into the input it started to melt the coils.

What I speculate is happening here is pure guessing. I was just surprised that I got it to work and thought that I should share the finding.

The load testing was interesting and simple. Just adjust things and watch the source amp draw and voltage on the charging cap. Without a load at the electrolytic cap the charge voltage just went up beyond where reality lives and sort of gave a false reading. With a load (an LED in my case) the voltage on the cap was more accurate. I just fiddled with all the adjustables until I got the best loaded voltage at the charge cap with the least amount of amp draw. I could see why Romero said to do it that way.

I am still a long way from getting the output power amount near the input power but I am understanding more and more why Romero was doing certain things. His focus was always on increasing the output efficiency of the dynamo and it wasn't until the very end that the focus turned to "self-running".

I have ordered the Litz wire and will be doing testing with that when it arrives. This project reminds me a "tuner car" where you make a whole bunch of tiny adjustments here and there and the overall performance goes up. Romero may have gotten the sum total of many things just right to get the device to work like it did. -----or the whole thing was a fake????
I just can't come to that awful conclusion yet. I see hope here and there that this might just work.

Lidmotor

[blackchisel97]

Patrick I am not sure why I got that to work but it may have to do with the several things.
First-- the generator part of this is out of phase with the drive so maybe the two are not fighting each other. Remember that what I showed in the video was NOT a self-runner. All it was meant to show was that closing the loop didn't kill the motor. The diodes in the bridges might be a factor also.

Second---the generator was putting out far less power than was being consumed out of the cap so maybe the supercap was just saying, "Hey. I don't care what you are doing over there generator. I'm going to run the motor and you can help if you want. I don't really care." Maybe when the balance shifts to where the generator starts putting out MORE energy than the the motor is using (lets assume that it actually happens) then the cap says, " Hey generator don't get in my face and try to do my job. Ease up. I can't take what you are giving me." Maybe that is why Romero had to use the voltage regulator. He stated that when he tried to connect the output directly back into the input it started to melt the coils.

What I speculate is happening here is pure guessing. I was just surprised that I got it to work and thought that I should share the finding.

The load testing was interesting and simple. Just adjust things and watch the source amp draw and voltage on the charging cap. Without a load at the electrolytic cap the charge voltage just went up beyond where reality lives and sort of gave a false reading. With a load (an LED in my case) the voltage on the cap was more accurate. I just fiddled with all the adjustables until I got the best loaded voltage at the charge cap with the least amount of amp draw. I could see why Romero said to do it that way.

I am still a long way from getting the output power amount near the input power but I am understanding more and more why Romero was doing certain things. His focus was always on increasing the output efficiency of the dynamo and it wasn't until the very end that the focus turned to "self-running".

I have ordered the Litz wire and will be doing testing with that when it arrives. This project reminds me a "tuner car" where you make a whole bunch of tiny adjustments here and there and the overall performance goes up. Romero may have gotten the sum total of many things just right to get the device to work like it did. -----or the whole thing was a fake????
I just can't come to that awful conclusion yet. I see hope here and there that this might just work.

Lidmotor

While I really hate theorizing without having working device on my bench, I see this as a sum of variables which have to be met in order to achieve what romerouk and Muller did. First is the efficiency of generator with its coils allowing the output to be as high (potential and current wise) as possible. Second would be the timing and separating input from the output so when you close the loop circuit doesn't know what you just did. Third would be matching the load.
You guys are doing great job


Vtech