Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[Slider2732]

As Lidmotor says, the loading is crucial. Really, what we're doing is running the machines at all times, as though they have a load. As though they are doing a job of work and not just running themselves.
If you think about it...if the circuit puts out more energy than it takes in, the excess can only charge say a cap or battery so far...and then it has to go somewhere.
In Romero's case, this was a build up of heat from his DC converter, which in and of itself isn't crucial to the design. What it is crucial to, is removing excess energy that has no place to go. Notice how he keeps an eye (or finger) on the temperature of the converter in the self run video.
The whole system reacts differently to no load than with a load. What that load is, or where it is most efficient, is determined by the excess generated. In Lidmotor's case, he's found an LED works fine to soak the energy. In Romero's case, it was a 12V bulb. In an industrial machine, it may be a block full of houses.

Here's an example, hopefully quite succinct and showing what I mean by load.
It's one of my White Crow circuits, powered by a wall adapter to try and rejuvenate a puffed out 12V house alarm battery that I got from Freecycle. Watch the bulb and how things change with that load applied. I hope it demonstrates load running

YouTube - ‪Pulse motor - amazing current effect‬‏

[minoly]

today I will at least do the ckt and a couple of Genny coils to see about closing the loop on the Romero drive ckt, there is talk about where an additional diode or two are placed that are not in the schematic.

any time we have ever tried to close the loop w/ anything except the method JB uses in the Bedini Cole ckt where the drive coil is completely isolated, the motor/gen has always slowed and/or things get hot.

we have attempted several times w/ the white crow ckt as well. this closes the loop, but the rotor slows and we can not make up for the charging. I think the two additional diodes you have there allow the close to happen. we need to get a bipolar hall like you have to test further. have you tried any other transistors?

as far as the load goes, if Romero has the light bulb after the DC 2 DC, then I can only see the generator being regulated because the light bulb is not allowing the primary's voltage to climb. This is very different than JB's builds including the method in the white crow.
OR perhaps we and Romero are all missing it - and impedance does play a role on the front end.

to the bench I go...
Patrick

[Farmhand]

Adding to the closing the loop discussion, if the loop is closed without load and regulation and if the gen coils produce a lot of power, even if the gen coils don't affect the operation of the drive coils the source voltage will rise and the machine will produce more power because of it, because it will be running from a higher voltage. Untill eventually it will fail. The source voltage needs to be regulated, the load needs to be less than the extra produced and energy must be wasted. There is no way around it. Either as heat in a componant or as a constant variable load.

Hope this helps.

Cheers

P.S. or the excess energy could be stored, up to a point of course. Also there needs to ba a way to stop the load using the "self running" portion of the excess energy produced, if the system is overloaded it would steal the self run power and drain the cap.

[toranarod]

easy electronics

the hall sensor can be dedicated to the job
this would be easer for some with limited electronics skills.

[toranarod]

This why I use a multi trigger pulse.



L/R Time Constant

YouTube - ‪Lec 20 | MIT 8.02 Electricity and Magnetism, Spring 2002‬‏

this is useful information.

[minoly]

The bench knows all - look to the bench

so Lidmotor is only sending the genny coil energy back to the primary not spikey or as some would call it BEMF from the primary driving ckt. that makes sense now. eventually though, doesn't Romero send all of it to the primary side?

People must be experimenting w/ different things for now, because I do see a few different schematics floating around. the main PDF that Romero seemed to be ok w/ shows the load/bulb is on the other side of the dc 2 dc so the genny coils should not see the load unless I'm missing something else the primary driving coils will see the load/bulb.

Farmhand, that's exactly how I see it as well. I was "reading" too much into it.

back to it...

Patrick

PS I'm liking those halls.

[Farmhand]

The bench knows all - look to the bench

so Lidmotor is only sending the genny coil energy back to the primary not spikey or as some would call it BEMF from the primary driving ckt. that makes sense now. eventually though, doesn't Romero send all of it to the primary side?

People must be experimenting w/ different things for now, because I do see a few different schematics floating around. the main PDF that Romero seemed to be ok w/ shows the load/bulb is on the other side of the dc 2 dc so the genny coils should not see the load unless I'm missing something else the primary driving coils will see the load/bulb.

Farmhand, that's exactly how I see it as well. I was "reading" too much into it.

back to it...

Patrick

PS I'm liking those halls.

Experiment bench has much more knowledge than me that's why I keep going back to him. If Romero put the bemf spike's from the drive coils somewhere it would need to be delivered to a higher voltage than the source or my experiments tell me it would cause problems.

I don't think the bemf could be delivered or directed to the output of the gen coils directly, I might be wrong.

If the drive coils have a second (bemf pick up) winding things get easier, I think. That can then be put though a FWBR and paralleled with the gen coil FWBR's.
Maybe.

I just have these thing's rattling around in my skull space so I thought I would share.

Awsome work guys

P.S. Here's a pic of a rough sketch of what I meant above. Maybe that will reduce the drive, I'm not sure.
http://wv3rsa.bay.livefilestore.com/...001.JPG?psid=1

[toranarod]

two coils

The one thing I have noticed
very few people are posting conformation data

this is an exact replica of the coil turns and wire as RomeroUK posted.

[quantumuppercut]

This why I use a multi trigger pulse.


YouTube - ‪Lec 20 | MIT 8.02 Electricity and Magnetism, Spring 2002‬‏

this is useful information.

Hi Rod,

Thanks for the vid. lecture. The part I liked most is the integration of inductor discharge current. lol

Hey, I heard you pulse your coil to about 63% or 70%. That's about 1 time constant? That's on the 600 turns 7 Ohm coil? What's your pulse duration for to achieve the 1 time constant? Sorry, I'm trying to see if I can estimate the coil inductance. Have you consider pulsing it at lower time constant? I know you have to adjust your sensor to get the pulse energy transfer efficiently but I think you said 1500 rpm max. Thanks.

QU

[Slider2732]

@ minoly - sorry for not getting back sooner, we had a lightning strike here and my PC blew up.
The monitor looked like a crash screen on a ZX Spectrum !
I was half tempted to put a kite on a string during the storm and then hook it to a Tesla tower and FWBR lol. Reverse psychology doesn't work on lightning I guess.

Transistors, yes, many of them you might be glad to know, much being similar to the micro Tesla tower experiments in fact. A strong performer being the well known MPSA06, weaker shorter runs being say a C945.
Here's a list of those tried, all NPN, because I read that PNP's tend to keep themselves amp hungry even during non switching.
Test conditions - White Crow as seen in bulb lighting vid, 4 magnets on rotor, 4.5V from wall adapter to charge a 1F supercap for 2 mins. Repeated 3 times with each and average time til rotor stall taken.

Best to worst
2N4401 - EBC - 17 mins (fluke ?!) 8:40 other two runs
MPSA06 - EBC - 8:20
MPSA44 - EBC - 7:20 (rapid deceleration, long final rotations)
D667 - ECB - 7:07
30612 - EBC - 5:15
30611 - EBC - 4:51 (full speed was much slower than average)
C945 - ECB - 4:36
C1854 - ECB - 4:11
C2785 - ECB - 3:58 (massive low speed run to end)
C1815 - ECB - 3:34 (rapid slow down)
MPSA13 - non runner
KSM13 - non runner

There may be something to the big differences noted, when scaling up for Romero/Muller machines.

[elias]

Power of Attraction vs Repulsion

Hi

I made a quick video to demonstrate that attraction is noticeably stronger than repulsion, so that repulsion is totally eliminated by the power of attraction:
YouTube - ‪Attraction vs Repulsion in Magnetic Fields‬‏

Elias

[toranarod]

Hi

I made a quick video to demonstrate that attraction is noticeably stronger than repulsion, so that repulsion is totally eliminated by the power of attraction:
YouTube - ‪Attraction vs Repulsion in Magnetic Fields‬‏

Elias

thats very interesting

Thanks for the demo

[Zooty]

Hi

I made a quick video to demonstrate that attraction is noticeably stronger than repulsion, so that repulsion is totally eliminated by the power of attraction:
YouTube - ‪Attraction vs Repulsion in Magnetic Fields‬‏

Elias

Very interesting. Never knew that. The thing is, does this effect work between an electromagnet and a permanent magnet?

[Slider2732]

In my own limited experiences so far, the effect is very noticeable.
It would seem that in repulsion, or pushing away mode, a pulse motor can desulphate a battery but won't go anywhere near the run times of attraction.
The magnetic lines that you can envisage within a magnet will either bunch or lengthen. If they bunch up in repulsion mode, you'll see the magnet become far less than permanent in terms of available force. If the lines are stretched they are still running in the same direction that they always have.
The magnet can be thought of like a piece of copper wire..if you pull on the wire then not much will happen, but if you knock the wire away suddenly then over repeated knocks the wire can kink and bend.

[minoly]

What happens when you push or pull on the "invisible" N or S

Patrick