Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

Hi toranarod,
thanks for your answer.

So if you have such a gen coil in place and the rpms don't drop when the coil is loaded, would it then not be the most straightforward way to just add another identical gen coil and hope for double the output?

that is exactly what i am thinking.

but one step at a time. there can be no short cuts it must be understood and properly documented.

[Slider2732]

Very encouraging Rod
Yep, once you witness no changes in rotor speed while drawing from it or setting the drive voltage anywhere you like it's just a mind boggler...a very cool experience. Translating constant speed running into generated power is about where i'm up to, though I haven't built a full sized motor yet.
Think i'll have to use some of MonsieurM's maths to get the constant speed correct.
Once the hard drive in this PC goes i'll have 2 or 4 more magnets for that...i've already reused the case mounted cooling fan and we have no air conditioning

[FRC]

Thankyou totoalas

Magnet Motor - Kicker.

another way to kick magnets around

cheers
totoalas

‪The magnet kicker‬‏ - YouTube

I mentioned on another thread that I had been looking for these types of
toys to modify to use as a timing device for cap pulsing. With your circuit
and explanation video, I can make my own. Thanks very much.

FRC

[marxist]

stick to direction

Hi,
when one makes a coil and winds the first layer of (litz-)wire onto the former or core one has defined the basic direction of the magnetic field, that will be created by the current.
The current in the wire will follow the winding and flow circular (clockwise or counter clockwise) AND FORWARD along the core, away from the starting point.

When you now wind the second layer, you will normally wind BACKWARDS toward the point where the first layer started.
I think, by doing so, you will partly destroy the strength of the magnetic field you created. This seems obvious to me, as the second layer of windings routes the current against the direction of the first.
So maybe someone has the patience to wind a coil, where the wire is brought straight back to the beginning after the first layer is wound, so that the second layer will start from the same end of the core as the first.

In this way the current would always travel in the same direction along the core and consequently the magnetic field/force would be reinforced by the second layer (and additional layers) instead of being weakened.
No?

edit: After thinking about this a bit more, I feel that I correctly described a problem but that the solution I proposed will not solve it.
I have to think about this better.
Sorry

[frenky]

Hi,
when one makes a coil and winds the first layer of (litz-)wire onto the former or core one has defined the basic direction of the magnetic field, that will be created by the current.
The current in the wire will follow the winding and flow circular (clockwise or counter clockwise) AND FORWARD along the core, away from the starting point.

When you now wind the second layer, you will normally wind BACKWARDS toward the point where the first layer started.
I think, by doing so, you will partly destroy the strength of the magnetic field you created. This seems obvious to me, as the second layer of windings routes the current against the direction of the first.
So maybe someone has the patience to wind a coil, where the wire is brought straight back to the beginning after the first layer is wound, so that the second layer will start from the same end of the core as the first.

In this way the current would always travel in the same direction along the core and consequently the magnetic field/force would be reinforced by the second layer (and additional layers) instead of being weakened.
No?

Also want to apologize for not trying this myself, but I am caught up in certain experiments with mechanics and can not abandon those, starting on the magnet-wheel.
Good luck.

I have read before that this is the best way to wind a coil so I always wind my coils that way (all layers wound form the same end). But I never tested the difference if coils wound this way perform better...

[marxist]

Hi frenky,
I just edited my posting.
I think there is a flaw in my thinking, as I proposed to bring the wire "straight back". But I now feel that this will not solve the described problem as it would still make the current flow backward through the previously created field and weaken it.
Maybe the wire has to be brought back to the start "in other way" so as to not interfere with the created magnetic field, but I don't know how/where it should be routed.

PS I recognize that Tesla's pancake coil avoids the problem.

[toranarod]

under load

On the subject of coils.

Tested a few coils today and some work and some do not in various ways.

Some work as predicted by Lenz law, load them down and the motor stop almost instantly.

Variation in the coil and the core provided good data to start designing coils to suit.
The ferrite core provided the worst results. This how every is not conclusive as it maybe the coil around it.
I was a bit surprised the coil I thought would provide a good result did not.

The direction to work in seems to be fast charge time type coil low resistance hi current output. The more you load this type of coil the fast the motor will run.
This is so different to what we are normally presented with.

I think I can come up with the parameters to build coils to suit motor designee. It is still a way off but the information is slowly presenting its self.

Every thing is very important nothing can be best guess. Coils, Core. Gap, RPM. Load inductance, resistance, litz wire, magnet surface area. It all needs to documented and
a set of calculation created to set designee rules. Theses generators will be given a set load that they will run on they will draw current even when they are not supplying power to there users.. it looks like they will not work unless they are under load.

Test 1 475 mill Amps at 2.8 volts. RPM 3268
Test 2 280 mil lamps at 7 volts RPM 2958

[MonsieurM]

On the subject of coils.

Tested a few coils today and some work and some do not in various ways.

Some work as predicted by Lenz law, load them down and the motor stop almost instantly.

Variation in the coil and the core provided good data to start designing coils to suit.
The ferrite core provided the worst results. This how every is not conclusive as it maybe the coil around it.
I was a bit surprised the coil I thought would provide a good result did not.

The direction to work in seems to be fast charge time type coil low resistance hi current output. The more you load this type of coil the fast the motor will run.
This is so different to what we are normally presented with.

I think I can come up with the parameters to build coils to suit motor designee. It is still a way off but the information is slowly presenting its self.

Every thing is very important nothing can be best guess. Coils, Core. Gap, RPM. Load inductance, resistance, litz wire, magnet surface area. It all needs to documented and
a set of calculation created to set designee rules. Theses generators will be given a set load that they will run on they will draw current even when they are not supplying power to there users.. it looks like they will not work unless they are under load.

Test 1 475 mill Amps at 2.8 volts. RPM 3268
Test 2 280 mil lamps at 7 volts RPM 2958

Rod, I know this is an off the wall question, but have you contemplated using a quartz core?

[Zooty]

Rod/Slider, do you think this would work without a core for example on a window motor? or is the core an essential part of the equation?

[toranarod]

Rod, I know this is an off the wall question, but have you contemplated using a quartz core?

I have never through about using quarts. how would i do that and where.
what sort of quarts?

[toranarod]

Rod/Slider, do you think this would work without a core for example on a window motor? or is the core an essential part of the equation?

last time i tried and air core it did not do much at the time.
On this set up it would be an experiment that needs to be tested and data collected.

[MonsieurM]

I have never through about using quarts. how would i do that and where.
what sort of quarts?

quartz is a piezo-electric crystal, when excited it emits its magnetic field...when building your drive coil /or pick up coil......

this is just to show you it is done for melting sample:

Functional principle: A water-cooled copper tube with several indentations serves as crucible. When charged with samples, the copper tube is fitted into a quartz tube and sealed vacuum-tightly.

The quartz tube is then evacuated and filled with pure argon gas.

The samples are molten by means of an RF coil. By moving the quartz tube horizontally within the coil on a linear slide the melt can be agitated and well mixed.

Edmund Bühler GmbH

see also: INVENTION - Piezomagnetic Induction (http://www.energeticforum.com/148868-post128.html )

By not using conventional electromagnetic induction we are able to produce electric power from free-spinning systems that are not bound by Lenz’s Law.

Piezoelectricity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[elias]

On the subject of coils.

Tested a few coils today and some work and some do not in various ways.

Some work as predicted by Lenz law, load them down and the motor stop almost instantly.

Variation in the coil and the core provided good data to start designing coils to suit.
The ferrite core provided the worst results. This how every is not conclusive as it maybe the coil around it.
I was a bit surprised the coil I thought would provide a good result did not.

The direction to work in seems to be fast charge time type coil low resistance hi current output. The more you load this type of coil the fast the motor will run.
This is so different to what we are normally presented with.

I think I can come up with the parameters to build coils to suit motor designee. It is still a way off but the information is slowly presenting its self.

Every thing is very important nothing can be best guess. Coils, Core. Gap, RPM. Load inductance, resistance, litz wire, magnet surface area. It all needs to documented and
a set of calculation created to set designee rules. Theses generators will be given a set load that they will run on they will draw current even when they are not supplying power to there users.. it looks like they will not work unless they are under load.

Test 1 475 mill Amps at 2.8 volts. RPM 3268
Test 2 280 mil lamps at 7 volts RPM 2958

What kind of cores are you using? Iron cores, have the drawback of
high eddy currents, and they heat up while dragging the rotor significantly,
Although they show signs of acceleration, but that is not always
very beneficial. Ferrite cores have eddy drag of nearly zero and are much
more efficient. If you compare it by including the eddy drag you'll find out that
ferrite is much better. I recommend doing tests such as charging capacitors,
which will drag much much less than loading the coils directly. Another way is
coil shorting, which will give back energy for free if the rotor speed is high
enough. I will be doing all sorts of tests in the coming days.

[toranarod]

tree in a forest

What kind of cores are you using? Iron cores, have the drawback of
high eddy currents, and they heat up while dragging the rotor significantly,
Although they show signs of acceleration, but that is not always
very beneficial. Ferrite cores have eddy drag of nearly zero and are much
more efficient. If you compare it by including the eddy drag you'll find out that
ferrite is much better. I recommend doing tests such as charging capacitors,
which will drag much much less than loading the coils directly. Another way is
coil shorting, which will give back energy for free if the rotor speed is high
enough. I will be doing all sorts of tests in the coming days.

Hello Elias,
It’s very beneficial that we are both simulating the construction of this current project. The slight differences in our approaches are helping us to cover a lot of bases. I am using iron cores as these have given me some of the best results. I do agree with you however, that ferrite cores would be expected to obtain better results.
My previous test with a ferrite core was disappointing but it is possible that it was not the ferrite which failed to produce good results but rather that the core mass was wrong. Anyway, until such time as I acquire new materials, which I have on order, I am going to continue with the iron core as you see in the photo below. I am focusing most of my attention on violation of Lens’ law.
Every piece of the puzzle we can uncover will help us deduce the best design possible. With the success of the current coil configuration I have wanted to try one more theory that has been buzzing around in my head for the last few weeks. This is an idea that I got a few years back when I was constructing permanent magnet motors; I did not end up with any functional devices at that time. It did however, become apparent that no matter how many magnets were on the rotor or the stator, the forces generated within the magnetic field were always equal. Any energy gained on the traction was lost on the other end so one would always end up with a free spinning rotor with very little drag and very little propulsion. So I got to thinking…. why couldn’t we do this with Lens’ law? I had a concept to make a motor generator utilizing the Lens’ law drag to not work in the same way as a permanent magnet motor would also not work.
In the photo below you can see 2 neo magnets, either side of the iron core, facing the stator. According to Lens’ Law the magnetic field induced by the magnet as it approaches the iron core will create a magnetic field in the core that will oppose the magnet on the rotor. Now, if the magnets that are attached to either side of the iron core reflect the same magnetic field as the Lens’ Law field, the Lens’ Law field becomes camouflaged….just as one might say, “hiding a tree in a forest”.
This test has proven very successful and there will be more detailed information about the technique in days to come as I correlate the data and check figures, but just to sum up:- I obtained rotor velocity of 3800 RPM while drawing 280 mille amps at 5.75 volts off the coil you see in the photo before you. The RPM did not change when the current draw was zero.




One more point The gap between magnet and coil you see in the photo is only for the photo shot. it was a lot closer

[elias]

That is really one of best ideas I have ever seen about eliminating the Lenz back drag! let us know how it goes, I will try this concept too. I need to build a new coil first.

Edit: Also remember to make a test with the Iron Core and without it to find out how much eddy drag it causes. My Iron cores really heat up!