Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[Zooty]

I had an alternative theory on this effect but it looks like i was wrong. I thought there was a delay in the magnetization/demagnetization of the core so that over a certain RPM, lenz was still present but not top dead center but rather after TDC. As the magnet approaches a gen coil under load, lenz tries to repel it and after TDC lenz attracts it. If it is offset due to delay in the core, the repulsion on lead out will push and the attraction will also push virtual south.

[qvision]

Hi Rod, wonderful work

I'm thinking of ways you could lower the input power and still get the same RPM.

My setup runs on less than 1 watt and achieves ~2000 RPM. Next week (when new parts arrive !) i'm hoping to get a lot more out of it with a different bearing shaft assembly.

I use 800 turns of 0.25mm wire on my 4 drive coils, resistance ~40 Ohms.

Hope this helps

[Cloxxki]

[semi off-topic]
All you guys working with results expressed in RPMs.
Do you ever test what the actual no-load friction of your device is at a range of RPMs? This should give direct insight into the overall efficiency of your motor. I suppose you'd remove the coils, spin the rotor with an outside motor, and measure in way way, as precisely as possible. Bearing and air drag are likely to be the only things slowing the rotor down when at constant RPM?
Measuring kinetic energy at one RPM and wind downs (plots multiple times per rotation) from top speed down to low speed, might allow to calculate drag coefficient very precisely. Then a simple program could always take input watts, RPM and known drag constant at every specific RPM, to come to an efficient percentage.
I know, this might be a project all in itself, but seeing these figures might really offer insight you seek. Bet when you do this more often, getting the data in on your latest rotor setup will be a matter of minutes.
Efforts to get the rotor at the lowest possible drag may also be saved, as the rotor itself will be added to the external load in calculations. As long as it performs consistently, not too much afffected by heat or moisture in the air. THANKS for showing the great work you do.
[/semi off-topic]

[qvision]

Good advice Clox, in the same vein of thinking, this is a handy project to aid in device analysis :

Sci-Spot.com - Dynamometer

[toranarod]

I had an alternative theory on this effect but it looks like i was wrong. I thought there was a delay in the magnetization/demagnetization of the core so that over a certain RPM, lenz was still present but not top dead center but rather after TDC. As the magnet approaches a gen coil under load, lenz tries to repel it and after TDC lenz attracts it. If it is offset due to delay in the core, the repulsion on lead out will push and the attraction will also push virtual south.

Zooty; Why do you think you are wrong?

this is the only theory that makes any sense

[quantumuppercut]

He just needs a confident boost. I put all my chips in on Zooty. Do or die. lol

[Shadesz]

You guys got me

If you read my whopping 13 posts in this forum you will find I was mostly skeptical of many things that are being pursued and discussed on energeticforum.com

However, curiosity kept me lurking, especially through this thread. You guys have made me change my mind. Originally a nay-sayer of free-energy, I have become a cautious believer! There is a lot of good work going on here and I want to thank and encourage you guys! If nothing else, you have converted this unbeliever!

But I don't think that is all that will come of this particular investigation. Your team combines some good minds, great ambition/dedication, some great mechanical talent, great electrical talent, and a willingness to share. I'm very impressed. You guys have a good formula for success!

And this is what has brought me out of the darkness. I have some very basic stuff to learn about electricity, motors, generators, etc., so my hands on contribution may be a while out. (Have any intro to electronic or electrical engineering textbooks you would recommend?) BUT I do have a mind that is pretty sharp with numbers and scientific reasoning. I plan to offer as much help as I can.

The first thing I would like to question is of all the talk, and evidence, of high RPM's overcoming lens law. So far, everyone has referred to the determining variable as RPM's, but to me that seems kind of inaccurate. Wouldn't the actual factor be the speed at which the magnet travels past the coil and/or coil's core?

This is an important distinction because units with varying rotor sizes will have different magnet speeds at the same RPM.

By not standardizing the variable in which lens law is overcome, we may miss patterns of like variables in different test units. IE one unit overcomes lens law at 1,500 RPM and another @ 3,000 RPM. While these may seem different, what if the speed at which the magnet is traveling past the coil is the same due to different rotor radius?

I thank Rod for posting so much of his raw data, and welcome every bit of data collected by everyone with a working (AND non-working) test unit. I'll assume one of the number crunching positions on the team and try to help identify the important information and develop formulas and calculations to help tweak the units.

Currently I want to help extract a formula that will help us balance RPM's, Lens Law, and Rotor size to get us the best performance at the safest speed. To do this, I have a few questions for those who have noticed Lens Law being overcome....

-At what RPM did you notice this effect started?

-What was the radius from the center of your rotor to the tip of your magnet?

-What dimensions was your magnet? Dimensions of you coil? The dimensions of the core of the coil if it had one?

-Can you post the data you have collected on those units? All the data (especially that at, and above which, it appears lens law was overcome?

Is there another thread that would be better fit to identify the lens law variables? Perhaps we should start one?

Once again guys good work! And keep on keepin on!

[Shadesz]

Here are the datasets that Rod has posted up to this point. Note that these have varying coil types, rotor radius, etc....

http://www.energeticforum.com/146934-post789.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/147156-post803.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/147278-post814.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/148093-post860.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/149263-post957.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/149055-post933.html

[toranarod]

Here are the datasets that Rod has posted up to this point. Note that these have varying coil types, rotor radius, etc....

http://www.energeticforum.com/146934-post789.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/147156-post803.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/147278-post814.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/148093-post860.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/149263-post957.html
http://www.energeticforum.com/149055-post933.html

hello Shadesz
there are a lot variables in the data I have not posted. its very time consuming to log and report every thing. I am currently going over coil core and magnet ratios.

I will make a point to be a bit more detailed. if there is some information you need i will dig up what i can or test for that specific value. A combined effort will get this moving along. great to have your input .

I will put together a list of your requested information.

[qvision]

Bending Lenz Law ...

A possible explanation of the effect is contained in this article.

Page 8 describes how to achieve the effect and page 11 attempts to explain it.

http://www.totallyamped.net/adams/index.html

[elias]

The first thing I would like to question is of all the talk, and evidence, of high RPM's overcoming lens law. So far, everyone has referred to the determining variable as RPM's, but to me that seems kind of inaccurate. Wouldn't the actual factor be the speed at which the magnet travels past the coil and/or coil's core?

Is there another thread that would be better fit to identify the lens law variables? Perhaps we should start one?

Once again guys good work! And keep on keepin on!

Hi
You are right, the speed of magnet passing the coil is a factor, the other factor is the time constant L/R of the coil, where L is the coil inductance, and R is the coil resistance + load.

I started these sorts of experiments, on January this year and concluded, that free energy is obvious and so started this thread:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...e-obvious.html
I tried to gather all the information I could on this subject. Using a larger rotor will certainly benefit as Muller was using. Using higher gauge wire and More turns + higher permeability core material is another great factor. Core dimensions versus Magnet dimensions is another factor. The hiding a tree in a forest method presented by Rod is another method I suppose that amplifies this effect.

What we have lacked on this forum is experimentation mentoring. You know each of us must build different setups, with different parameters so that we will get a broader understanding of the effect.

I am onto this if people want to participate, we need to design experimentation scenarios, that each participant can take, and post the results after a certain time, e. g. two weeks. We will then gather all the data and plot some charts and try to find out where the effect is maximized.

So these are the photos of my new generator and coils:



My two new coils, The top one is 5-filar 200 turns and the bottom one is a single filar 2mm wire, about 250 turns.
The second coil, which has much lower resistance, when shorted at about 5610 RPM, just drops the RPM down to about 5520, and it take quite some time to do this, When loaded by a 12V 55watt lamp, the voltage sits at about 4.7V and the current is about 3A, resulting in about 14Watts of output, the DC motor only draws about 10watts more power, loading the rotor down to about 5160 RPM. (This is overunity already, COP 1.4, but this can be maximized upto infinity course, with right parameters, L, R coil dimensions, rotor speed, etc).
Now Rod's idea bout using a DC to DC converter is brilliant, because we have to decrease drag with high current and low voltage energy taken from the coil, which results in a more L/R time constant. Actually I think a phase shift is happening, because the voltage on the coil is AC. decreasing R shifts the current phase so that it does not interfere with the Rotor.

Now my next step is to add more windings to my coil. And I need to get a much lower impedance lamp, a 12v,100Watt car lamp might do it.

Another method of getting energy is coil shorting which there is another thread for this subject I believe.

Elias

[elias]

Rodney,

Have you experimented charging capacitors? It might result in a fast dragless charging as I see this. Also you might want to consider using a step up transformer at the output of the coil, which has a low impedance input. This might also even lag the input current more, resulting in much less drag.

Elias

[qvision]

If people would follow the link i gave in my last post above and read pages 8 and 11 and tell me what they think, i think it gives a good insight into what is happeneing here.

[toranarod]

dedicated team

Rodney,

Have you experimented charging capacitors? It might result in a fast dragless charging as I see this. Also you might want to consider using a step up transformer at the output of the coil, which has a low impedance input. This might also even lag the input current more, resulting in much less drag.

Elias

Hello Elias
Great work. I support your idea about dividing up the research and all post the results. Your results are impressive. Can you help me with a drive motor like the one you use I need faster RPM. Can I also get a complete spec sheet on you design?
I must compare this to what I have already documented to see if this is the same.
Basically Magnet size and core and coil size rotor Diameter and so on.
I just cannot get any thing from ferrite cores. My new Ferrite cores are available for pick up so will test them again soon.


I am thinking just as you say. Low impedance step up transformers.
I am going for some DC to DC converters as you know. I ordered some over a week ago I wish they would arrive.

As you know I am trying to tune it with small magnets on the side of the coils.
Like Romero did by placing them on the back the coils.
My approach is from a concept point of view is for completely different reason.

Down to business, today’s research notes.

I tried every thing I could to get some sort of result at 2900 RPM. Total failure
It is just an ordinary generator any load will stop the motor in a few seconds.

The magic starts at 3800 RPM to finally run free. At 4000 RPM it’s all good again.
I am going to try to push the motor up above 5000 RPM I need to collect some information on what will occur at a much higher speed It may help shed some light on this.

In the chart below you can see the entire test in red and blue are the same except for the first shielding magnet its poll is north. Till now they have always been south as the rotor approaches the core. This one change created an improvement at certain current loads. It was also a good indicator as to what the magnetic field is doing at various loads with in the Iron core. This has been the best insight into these phenomena.

It’s great working with such a dedicated team. It will be cool to say couldn’t of done it on my own.

[toranarod]

If people would follow the link i gave in my last post above and read pages 8 and 11 and tell me what they think, i think it gives a good insight into what is happeneing here.

going there now