Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[Turion]

For those of you interested in working with laminated cores. I use regular welding rod that I treat. I have a 4" piece of pvc capped on one end with a screw on cap on the other end. I keep it filled with polyurethane.

Tale a piece of steel longer than the 4" opening of the pipe so you can lay it across the top. Stick some neos onto it with paper in between so you can slide them off easier. Lift it up and attach the metal welding rods to the bottom of the steel by magnetic attraction. Be sure to leave some spaces between rods, because you've turned them into magnets that will want to stick to each other, and go SLOW so they don't fall off. Lower them into the polyurethane. You may need to add more liquid to make sure it comes right up to the top and coats the whole rod. If you don't care about reusing your neos for other projects you can dunk the whole thing in the polyurethane, but be warned, it builds up a coating on the steel that will keep the rods from sticking and will have to be removed with a grinder or sanding disk. Remove the rods and let them drip onto something you don't care about. I have a little stand that holds my piece of steel and lets my rods drip onto some newspaper that I can then throw away. When they are dry I will paint the end that was stuck to the steel with a brush and some more polyurethane, and then let them dry again. I'm sure varnish or other coatings would work, but I happen to have this on hand, so it's what I have been using.

[toranarod]

2- The distance between two consecutive magnets must be no more than one magnet a part. This is also very important.



Don't you think the hall sensor could still detect a change, and if placed sufficiently apart from the rotor, it could still detect a change?

Why would that be important to have the magnets close to each other?

8- Using proper core material: ferrite, or laminated Iron, or mu metal or magnetite. The core material diameter being a bit less than the diameter of the magnets.

I think Romero had 6mm diameter cores and 20mm diameter magnets. isn't that more than a bit less than the diameter of the magnets?



Thank you for the correction. I had the incorrect conversion of 1000ft that gives 304.8m ... And as you can guess with my lack of knowledge of UK units, I'm not in the UK
I didn't found in wires.co.uk where it gave the conversion between weight and length.

Anyway, 500g is enough still.

Meryl

his cores where also flat with the coils. So his coil diameters where the same size as the magnets. remember the the Muller core extend past the coils and are the same size as he magnets. I think Romero saw this as the same thing?

there is a very important relation ship between magnet size and core or coils size. this then decides how fast and how far the magnet are from the core and how fast the magnets must pass the cores.

Romero coil



Muller coil


My coil


all work because of the magnets size the coil or core size

[toranarod]

For those of you interested in working with laminated cores. I use regular welding rod that I treat. I have a 4" piece of pvc capped on one end with a screw on cap on the other end. I keep it filled with polyurethane.

Tale a piece of steel longer than the 4" opening of the pipe so you can lay it across the top. Stick some neos onto it with paper in between so you can slide them off easier. Lift it up and attach the metal welding rods to the bottom of the steel by magnetic attraction. Be sure to leave some spaces between rods, because you've turned them into magnets that will want to stick to each other, and go SLOW so they don't fall off. Lower them into the polyurethane. You may need to add more liquid to make sure it comes right up to the top and coats the whole rod. If you don't care about reusing your neos for other projects you can dunk the whole thing in the polyurethane, but be warned, it builds up a coating on the steel that will keep the rods from sticking and will have to be removed with a grinder or sanding disk. Remove the rods and let them drip onto something you don't care about. I have a little stand that holds my piece of steel and lets my rods drip onto some newspaper that I can then throw away. When they are dry I will paint the end that was stuck to the steel with a brush and some more polyurethane, and then let them dry again. I'm sure varnish or other coatings would work, but I happen to have this on hand, so it's what I have been using.

sounds good Bedini recommended welding rods I remember.

can you post a photo?

[qvision]

Yes Bedini recommended copper-coated welding rods.

[Lidmotor]

The "Tiny motor/generator" really doesn't belong here--but this may be how it works

In Responce to post 1366 { http://www.energeticforum.com/153399-post1366.html }

This Mini Dynamo is making lots of Builders quite curious [some very skilled builders].

Another Take on the Mans [builder] Printed text Here

Romerouk's Muller Replication

Chet
PS
I am in complete agreement that understanding this Wee Beasty can help the effort "Here"!!

@All
After much thought and reading input from a bunch of folks on other forums, I don't think that this "tiny motor/generator" is anything special. I still want to build one but I don't think that it is mysterious or of any value to the Muller Dynamo study. I think that he used a transistor to switch the coils.

Here is a setup that I put together with what I had that shows similar results. By the way the inventor has pulled his two videos showing the motor off YouTube.

Tiny motor-generator----replication maybe.ASF - YouTube

Lidmotor

[quantumuppercut]

@All
After much thought and reading input from a bunch of folks on other forums, I don't think that this "tiny motor/generator" is anything special. I still want to build one but I don't think that it is mysterious or of any value to the Muller Dynamo study. I think that he used a transistor to switch the coils.

Here is a setup that I put together with what I had that shows similar results. By the way the inventor has pulled his two videos showing the motor off YouTube.

Tiny motor-generator----replication maybe.ASF - YouTube

Lidmotor

hi Lidmotor,

I'm also curious did he use a switch. I find a vid that may shed some light into this but I don't know how it works either. lol

TEST NO. 1 STRAIGHT DC - SELF PULSING DC MOTOR ("Pulseless and Brushless").mov - YouTube

[toranarod]

hi Lidmotor,

I'm also curious did he use a switch. I find a vid that may shed some light into this but I don't know how it works either. lol

TEST NO. 1 STRAIGHT DC - SELF PULSING DC MOTOR ("Pulseless and Brushless").mov - YouTube

Have you ever used an out runner Motor. They are a pulse motor but have no hall sensor or reed switch. they sink right up to the pulse frequency. I am currently installing one in the top of my Muller motor as a drive motor. they get up to 7000 RPM. they use a processor based speed controller. Do any of you remember RomeroUK saying theses OUT RUNNERs are almost OU straight out the box? He said He re wired ONE Who Remembers that?

HobbyKing Online R/C Hobby Store : HXT 80-85-A 250Kv Brushless Outrunner (eq: 70-40))

[wattsup]

@toranarod

I have to explain something here that maybe will help you to figure some of this out. The biggest problem you will have with your mounted motor is that is will never be able to help the rotor turn when it is loaded. It will be as is the small motor was not even there because that motor will never have enough torque available.

Because of leverage, since the gen coils are on the outer edge of the rotor, the drag condition (gen coils) and the motive condition (drive coils) are working on the same leverage point. But when drag occurs on the outer edge of the rotor at let's say a level of 1, the force of drag being applied to the center motor will be 10. It will never be able to turn the rotor and act as is it was not event there. So you are trying to use the force of leverage but really in reverse.

If you are going to use the center shaft, you are better off designing your outer coils to all work as drive coils that would be located at the outer edge where leverage is maximum and on the central shaft put a motor generator instead of a drive motor. Then you can start playing with the outer coils to produce maximum drive torque and rpm because both of these will be mutual criteria to produce enough output off a central generator.

I sent you a PM a little while back and discussed about more testing of drive coils as well as cascading coils for the gen coils. That type of system, let's say one or two drive coil pairs and 7 or 8 cascading coil pairs (if you are using 9 coils per stator) may be a very efficient motor drive.

All the best.

wattsup

[qvision]

I just searched all of romerouk's posts on OU.com and found no mention of outrunners.

[stevie1001]

And here is another one.......

Well, i thought i should give it a try.....

Its a lot of work to get things done properly.
8 neo's in the rotor.
Space for 9 coils.

My rotor is a bit larger then most of you.
30 cm diameter.
Spacing of the magnets where determined by the force of the magnets on each other.
Tonight, the first coils for atracting the rotormagnets will be made.
I want to make 2 bifilar coils, because of the better electromagnet properties of such coils.

The alternative is a 6 watt 230V electromotor from a turntable. Doing a 1600 turns per minute. (Yes kids. There was a time before the ipod where people where playing plastic music discs on a device called a turntable... )

Feel free to write any comments for improvements on this build.

[mondrasek]

I have to explain something here that maybe will help you to figure some of this out. The biggest problem you will have with your mounted motor is that is will never be able to help the rotor turn when it is loaded. It will be as is the small motor was not even there because that motor will never have enough torque available.

Because of leverage, since the gen coils are on the outer edge of the rotor, the drag condition (gen coils) and the motive condition (drive coils) are working on the same leverage point. But when drag occurs on the outer edge of the rotor at let's say a level of 1, the force of drag being applied to the center motor will be 10. It will never be able to turn the rotor and act as is it was not event there. So you are trying to use the force of leverage but really in reverse.

@wattsup, I don't think you have this quite right. For example, my 200mm rotor spins just fine and is powered by a tiny VCR head motor that has a rotor diameter of only 50mm.

M.

[toranarod]

@toranarod

I have to explain something here that maybe will help you to figure some of this out. The biggest problem you will have with your mounted motor is that is will never be able to help the rotor turn when it is loaded. It will be as is the small motor was not even there because that motor will never have enough torque available.

Because of leverage, since the gen coils are on the outer edge of the rotor, the drag condition (gen coils) and the motive condition (drive coils) are working on the same leverage point. But when drag occurs on the outer edge of the rotor at let's say a level of 1, the force of drag being applied to the center motor will be 10. It will never be able to turn the rotor and act as is it was not event there. So you are trying to use the force of leverage but really in reverse.

If you are going to use the center shaft, you are better off designing your outer coils to all work as drive coils that would be located at the outer edge where leverage is maximum and on the central shaft put a motor generator instead of a drive motor. Then you can start playing with the outer coils to produce maximum drive torque and rpm because both of these will be mutual criteria to produce enough output off a central generator.

I sent you a PM a little while back and discussed about more testing of drive coils as well as cascading coils for the gen coils. That type of system, let's say one or two drive coil pairs and 7 or 8 cascading coil pairs (if you are using 9 coils per stator) may be a very efficient motor drive.

All the best.

wattsup

I understand what you are saying about ratios and so on . But it something i have wanted to try for a while. and if my gen coils are Lenzless then there will be no drag. Well that's the experiment. I need the RPM when I have finished mounting the motor I post a video of how fast it will go.

thanks for you help cheers

[toranarod]

I just searched all of romerouk's posts on OU.com and found no mention of outrunners.

Yes i went back and looked to. But I do remember over at OU there was a post from him with a Photo of an out runner and a statement saying they are almost ou out the box. he had a Photo Of the wiring Job. It must of been taken down.
It stuck in my mind because I fly model Planes You see and have a few of theses motors.

[toranarod]

Well, i thought i should give it a try.....

Its a lot of work to get things done properly.
8 neo's in the rotor.
Space for 9 coils.

My rotor is a bit larger then most of you.
30 cm diameter.
Spacing of the magnets where determined by the force of the magnets on each other.
Tonight, the first coils for atracting the rotormagnets will be made.
I want to make 2 bifilar coils, because of the better electromagnet properties of such coils.

The alternative is a 6 watt 230V electromotor from a turntable. Doing a 1600 turns per minute. (Yes kids. There was a time before the ipod where people where playing plastic music discs on a device called a turntable... )

Feel free to write any comments for improvements on this build.

good looking build The Muller motor is a big job to replicate we appreciate the effort it takes to make one. pleases post-more PICs

[mondrasek]

Yes i went back and looked to. But I do remember over at OU there was a post from him with a Photo of an out runner and a statement saying they are almost ou out the box. he had a Photo Of the wiring Job. It must of been taken down.
It stuck in my mind because I fly model Planes You see and have a few of theses motors.

Muller Dynamo

and

Muller Dynamo