Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[Shadesz]

@Rod,

Thanks for re-explaining it. I'm coming around slowly.

Also thank you qvision and Elias for the links

My hang up was in thinking that current was the amount of flowing electrons, and voltage was the speed of the electrons: not the case. Voltage is the potential of electron travel, not the speed of electron travel.

So now, when a generator coil is charged, it peaks the voltage before any current begins to flow. Thus we can have our voltage without lenz. But then the current begins to flow and as such, lenz starts to show up. So the idea is to delay the current without having to worry about voltage...?

[Shadesz]

Now for the next question,

Why when you first charge an inductor does voltage spike before current flows? I have my ideas but was wondering if anyone already knew so I don't have to speculate.

[toranarod]

@Rod

Have you tried charging low impedance batteries with your coil? Because batteries have low impedance they should behave like shorting coils. I think that this was the "secret" of the Watson machine, he was charging batteries by pulsing the coils into the battery at the "right" moment, so that the phase delay of the "current" made Lenz go away.

If you have achieved no drag by shorting through diode bridges, I suggest give this a try!

Elias

No I have not tried that,its a good idea I have just finish my 3rd new Rotor.
It was rather difficult to get them all just perfectly in the right place.

getting the coils together I need to make a few more.

This is what I came up with from what I calculated from my research, also the designee are the best or as close as we can get on the budgets we have and skills and resources at our disposal.

[toranarod]

Now for the next question,

Why when you first charge an inductor does voltage spike before current flows? I have my ideas but was wondering if anyone already knew so I don't have to speculate.

Do you mean by a mechanical switch? the moment you close the switch Its because of what we call the bounce effect. have you ever heard of a de-bounce circuit? pair of cross coupled NAND gates.
there is a reason why switching a coil with a transistor is better than a reed switch. that's why they burn out. they do not close fast enough.
every mechanical switch will actually switch on and off several times before it's properly closed. that's what the spike is.

If this is what you are referring to

[elias]

That is good work Rod, beautiful.

This is the old image for the Watson Machine that is amazingly black and white, as I have never understood why, maybe it was copied from a book:



Anyway ... what really is interesting about this design, are these five points:

1. A really large rotor!
2. Really long coils!
3. Muller type Odd/Even design, as you can see the magnets and coils are not completely aligned.
4. Really large space between the magnets.
5. A really large flywheel.

Now that is quite interesting!
What about the long coils? actually I did a test a couple of days ago with a fat coil and a long coil with about same number of turns. I shorted them, and both of them were drawing about the same amount of current when shorted, but ... The long one had much higher lenz delay, and dragged the rotor much less! Because it had less resistance. Longer the coil less resistance it takes for each turn.
Watson was pulsing all of this into a low impedance battery, now this sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Only speculations and some food for thought ...


Elias

[toranarod]

That is good work Rod, beautiful.

This is the old image for the Watson Machine that is amazingly black and white, as I have never understood why, maybe it was copied from a book:



Anyway ... what really is interesting about this design, are these five points:

1. A really large rotor!
2. Really long coils!
3. Muller type Odd/Even design, as you can see the magnets and coils are not completely aligned.
4. Really large space between the magnets.
5. A really large flywheel.

Now that is quite interesting!
What about the long coils? actually I did a test a couple of days ago with a fat coil and a long coil with about same number of turns. I shorted them, and both of them were drawing about the same amount of current when shorted, but ... The long one had much higher lenz delay, and dragged the rotor much less! Because it had less resistance. Longer the coil less resistance it takes for each turn.
Watson was pulsing all of this into a low impedance battery, now this sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Only speculations and some food for thought ...


Elias

Thank you Elias
you have just confirmed my raving on about the resistance needing to low as possible.
great Photo and information.

[MonsieurM]

you could also say that each coil in the picture resembles the secondary of a Tesla Coil

[Shadesz]

Do you mean by a mechanical switch? the moment you close the switch Its because of what we call the bounce effect. have you ever heard of a de-bounce circuit? pair of cross coupled NAND gates.
there is a reason why switching a coil with a transistor is better than a reed switch. that's why they burn out. they do not close fast enough.
every mechanical switch will actually switch on and off several times before it's properly closed. that's what the spike is.

If this is what you are referring to

Sorry I should not have used the word spike.

My question is, why when you switch an inductor are voltage and current out of phase with voltage being the leader?

Ps, nice build! I wish I had build skills and more resources to do so.

[Shadesz]

@Elias,

Very nice. Long coil over fat coil makes total sense when you want to reduce resistance. Less wire per turn = less resistance per turn.

I have a question about your test. What were the cores made out of, and what did each core weigh?

Thanks

[Shadesz]

Hey guys, I'm waiting for more conversation about why we get the phase difference from inductors before I share my theory.

But just as a side note, with my current theory, it appears that a drive inductor maximum phase shift may be 90 degrees, but a generator inuctor (pickup inductor) maximum phase shift could be 180 degrees.



If anyone has the capabilities I would ask them to test this on a transformer.

[Shadesz]

Just some history for those not familiar with the Watson Machine...

Watsons SelfPowering Generator Energy from Vacuum

[elias]

you could also say that each coil in the picture resembles the secondary of a Tesla Coil

The beauty of creation is the fact that it makes you learn all the time, and it will never ever end I suppose.

[MonsieurM]

take a little break and watch (some of you have probably already seen it )...even you are harmonic....enjoy

World Science Festival 2009: Bobby McFerrin Demonstrates the Power of the Pentatonic Scale - YouTube

[elias]

@Elias,

Very nice. Long coil over fat coil makes total sense when you want to reduce resistance. Less wire per turn = less resistance per turn.

I have a question about your test. What were the cores made out of, and what did each core weigh?

Thanks

Yes At first I was speculating that fat coils are better, but experimentation proved otherwise, will post a picture of my coils as I get my hands to them. For the mean time:

First coil: 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 80mm in length, with a 10mm diameter ferrite core.

Second coil: about 700 turns of 0.7mm wire about 40mm in length with a 10 mm diameter ferrite core.

These are approximations, not exact values, but the voltage reading was the same for the same rotor, and the second one really dragged more while shorting.

I did also another test with another type of coil with 2mm wire on it with the same results.

Elias

[toranarod]

Hey guys, I'm waiting for more conversation about why we get the phase difference from inductors before I share my theory.

But just as a side note, with my current theory, it appears that a drive inductor maximum phase shift may be 90 degrees, but a generator inuctor (pickup inductor) maximum phase shift could be 180 degrees.



If anyone has the capabilities I would ask them to test this on a transformer.

That's an interesting idea
I would like to know what your thinking is we need some new input.
if it is 180 then that would be fantastic
always willing to look at new ideas.
why we get the phase difference from inductors because any electrical field in motion creates magnetic field in motion. and that magnetic field in turn induces current to flow in the opposite direction to the current that created it. that's all I got.

Please explain your Ideas