Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[Shadesz]

An important excerpt from the second article I linked...

However, this result assumes that the ring is
purely resistive, which it is not. As it has some
self-inductance, this results in the current in the
ring lagging the applied field. The result of this
is a net upward force sufficient to levitate the ring.
If the current in the ring lags the applied field
by δ, then the upward force is proportional to
− ω sin(ωt ) cos(ωt + δ),
i.e.
12
[ω sin(2ωt) cos(δ)] + ω sin2(ωt ) sin(δ)
[cos(A + B) ≡ cosAcos B − sinAsin B].

The first term integrated over a cycle is zero,
but the second term is always positive, giving a net
upward force on the ring and hence the lift that is
observed.

This leads to the following conclusions:

(1) Lenz’s law cannot be used to explain the
motion of the ring.

(2) Faraday’s laws of induction, together with a
recognition that the ring has some
self-inductance (which leads to a phase shift
of the induced current), is the correct
explanation of the observed behaviour.

I really really think we can use this even more then we already accidentally might be doing.

[Shadesz]

Just a note for people who don't know. A sister thread has started discussing lenz law, what it is, and what the "delayed lenz" really is. (It isn't lenz law)

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewa...-law-what.html

[Rubberband]

opposing fields

Hey everyone,

I found a few publications that investigate this levitating ring phenomenon. They suggest that claims referring to it simply being lenz law and/or phase shift are not correct. They suggest something else is happening. These publications are only 4 years old.

I found some of them at my University's Online Library. Because they are published in scientific journals I cannot post the full articles here, unless I find them freely distributed through a google search..


Here is one


And another (this one you can download)

Note that this article references others that explain the phenomenon. They would be good to look up as well.

This effect reminds me of a video I saw of "The Magnet Man" dropping a disk shaped five pound neo onto a one inch thick Aluminum plate. The magnet landed flat from a one foot drop and made virtually no noise from impact, almost stopping from falling.

[elias]

This effect reminds me of a video I saw of "The Magnet Man" dropping a disk shaped five pound neo onto a one inch thick Aluminum plate. The magnet landed flat from a one foot drop and made virtually no noise from impact, almost stopping from falling.

That is the same effect but this time instead of the magnet, the magnetic field is moving.

[qvision]

Check this out.

The entire lecture is great, but the part I start you at is an actual application of the phase shift I am talking about. But instead of levitating aluminum or a woman, let's levitate magnets.

I remember seeing the experiment on a video called Free Energy Inventions, it was similar to the following video link but i think it needed quite high voltage :

Levitation of an Electromagnetic Induction Coil - YouTube

[toranarod]

An important excerpt from the second article I linked...



I really really think we can use this even more then we already accidentally might be doing.

So do I?

I have a few ideas to make it rotate a rotor. I want to separate all the magnet anomalies. tying to individuality isolate each one.

Anyway Shades here is a thought.

As you know the aluminum ring will not levitate if its got a slot cut in it, Correct? I am going to see if I can switch the ring on and off shorting out the slot with a reed switch.

what do you think?

this stuff is so much fun

[MonsieurM]

Rod...the magnets you have been using so far were all similar or of different shapes and if so which ones?

thanks

[toranarod]

Rod...the magnets you have been using so far were all similar or of different shapes and if so which ones?

thanks

I have been swapping magnets around a lot.

I have found my worst combination was my 30mm x 25mm disc magnets.
They where just to big for my rotor size. 10mm x 10mm where the best up to a point because they where silty smaller than the core face.

I am see good results with the 16mm dia ring magnets in combination with my 14mm iron core.

see photo



the other point is the aluminum bracket holding the magnets.
see how its bolted to the rotor. that bracket completes a circuit through the bolts that fix it to the PVC disc.Good or bad that is the question.
I am now wondering about what kind of effect that has.

[Farmhand]

An important excerpt from the second article I linked...

Quote:
However, this result assumes that the ring is
purely resistive, which it is not. As it has some
self-inductance, this results in the current in the
ring lagging the applied field. The result of this
is a net upward force sufficient to levitate the ring.
If the current in the ring lags the applied field
by δ, then the upward force is proportional to
− ω sin(ωt ) cos(ωt + δ),
i.e.
12
[ω sin(2ωt) cos(δ)] + ω sin2(ωt ) sin(δ)
[cos(A + B) ≡ cosAcos B − sinAsin B].

The first term integrated over a cycle is zero,
but the second term is always positive, giving a net
upward force on the ring and hence the lift that is
observed.

This leads to the following conclusions:

(1) Lenz’s law cannot be used to explain the
motion of the ring.

(2) Faraday’s laws of induction, together with a
recognition that the ring has some
self-inductance (which leads to a phase shift
of the induced current), is the correct
explanation of the observed behaviour.

I really really think we can use this even more then we already accidentally might be doing.

I agree with you Shades, if Lens law cannot explain it that is good.
And I think it "could" be more than it looks.

I also think if Rod was to setup his best generator setup to date, the one with
the switching of the coils. And drove it with his outrunner powered in a kind of
"switch up" arrangement to recirculate energy in a closed loop drive circuit, he
could show over unity type performance. The more drag on the motor from
the generator the greater the magnitude of recirculating current in the drive
loop, small loss. A fully Lenzed up generator shouldn't be a problem, but
improvements are always good. By definition.

Ideally the closed loop drive circuit should be all in one with the motor. I think

Cheers

[Shadesz]

So do I?

I have a few ideas to make it rotate a rotor. I want to separate all the magnet anomalies. tying to individuality isolate each one.

Anyway Shades here is a thought.

As you know the aluminum ring will not levitate if its got a slot cut in it, Correct? I am going to see if I can switch the ring on and off shorting out the slot with a reed switch.

what do you think?

this stuff is so much fun

isolating each one would be a good idea. It would help us tune our learning.

That's a good idea, I wonder how do you plan to use that idea???? Reed switch or a transistor maybe?

[Farmhand]

Like this kind of. The rotor could have permanent magnets this way. This drawing only shows half there should be four transformers opposites series connected and two phases 90*. Each pair could actually be above and below a vertical pole rotor magnet just like a Muller.

Concept only ! I don't say this works.
S1 connects to C1 and S2 connects to C2.


Uploaded with ImageShack.us

Can anyone see why this won't work ?

Edit: This bit of text is from the book Page 23. To do with Tesla's motors like I
linked here. http://www.energeticforum.com/160950-post72.html

The employment of multipolar motors secures in this system an
advantage much desired and unattainable in the continuous current
system, and that is, that a motor may be made to run exactly
at a predetermined speed irrespective of imperfections in construction,
of the load, and, within certain limits, of electromotive
force and current strength.

Anything that will run very cheap and drive a cogging-less Muller should work well.

[quantumuppercut]

I just thought of something.

If professor Lewin is correct on the formula wL/R being the phase angle, then we can use that formula. What I think is we might have grabbed the wrong L for the equation. A coil have two different L(s), one is coil inductance and the other is wire inductance. I think the formula apply to wire inductance for our case.

Inductance of a Straight Wire: A Calculator

"...Even a single, straight piece of wire has some inductance!
We generally associate inductance with a loop or coil of wire. However, even a straight piece of wire, or your electrode, has some self-inductance. This can be important if you are dealing with low impedances (< 1 ohm) at high frequencies (> 10kHz)."

[Dave45]

I think the aluminum ring is being effected by the E field the magnetic field is running through the center of the ring the electric field is running through the ring, thats why its heating up, that also explains why the split ring doesnt work.

This also shows you what your core is doing, by having it sticking out the back of your coil its moving the E field away from your coil,
Dave

[Dave45]

So do I?

I have a few ideas to make it rotate a rotor. I want to separate all the magnet anomalies. tying to individuality isolate each one.

Anyway Shades here is a thought.

As you know the aluminum ring will not levitate if its got a slot cut in it, Correct? I am going to see if I can switch the ring on and off shorting out the slot with a reed switch.

what do you think?

this stuff is so much fun

Great idea, it got me thinking of the Testika electrostatic generator, I couldnt help myself

[Dave45]

Great idea, it got me thinking of the Testika electrostatic generator, I couldnt help myself

Dang this thing might fly
Just taking a break from winding a toroid, amusing myself