Muller generator replication by Romerouk

[toranarod]

@toranarod

Seems like the R&D is going wayside.

What is lacking is a better understanding of the drive coils. I had PMd you a complete protocol to do some testing in that light. I think that was when you decided to transform your wheel with your outrunner, and it seems the dynamics of the thread started to change. I tried to explain the leverage issues.

Those tests would have shown you things that you do not know yet especially the actual usefulness of the second drive coil that is in series to make the drive coil pair. How much of the actual motive impulse do you think is really going to the second coil? But my test protocol goes much deeper then that.

But in any case, what I am realizing is that you cannot wind a drive coil with layers going back and forth, back and forth and expect the full polarity of the coil end that is against the rotor magnet to receive a full blow. It is impossible. Back and forth layering creates what you could call an RMS field or a fat field where both polarities fight each other to produce a quasi north and south field. Quasi because each field will still have the other fields components melding in many ways and even cancelling each other. But in such motive systems where brute force is required, you do not want to create an inductive kick as is created by the present drives coils where most of the coil energy is happening far away from the rotor magnet side of the coil. Just to much happening to create a fast direct hit. The buck stops at the drive coil end where it yells SCRAM to the magnet with a kick in the ass. You want to generate a true simple and immediate kick. You can have the best designed soccer ball in the world. You still have to know how to kick the ball.

For the drive coil, I have yet to see anyone use a coil that is wound one layer, then cut and wind another layer the same way then cut, and keep going like that. This will give you a coil of XX layers all paralleled on each end so you have the same polarity hitting the rotor magnet without any inner coil winding conflicts, cross polarities, cancellations, etc. But do not be fooled. This is not the same thing as winding a bifilar or multifilar coil of 10 wires and 10 layers continuous. You would have to take a 100 filar with only 5 or 6 turns to cover the complete bobbin in one layer. This is not practical. That is why I am recommending as above.

This will give you a coil that has a perfect north and south field. Ask yourself one question. Does the rotor magnet have a perfect north and south field? Answer: Typically yes the magnet has a very well defined north and south field with full intensity on each end. So.... then why would you expect less then that from the coil that is supposed to drive it. Plus when the coil is pulsed, the energy will activate the inner winding faster then it will the outer winding creating a physical inner-layer-to-outer-layer motion that is perfect for repulsion driven motive systems. But no one had tried this yet. Too bad for that. Even Romero should consider this for his drive coils otherwise the drag will kill it. The drive coils and their efficiency to produce motive force is the most important part of your wheel. Turning a wheel at no load to obtain fast rpm is nothing, means nothing, accomplishes nothing but providing you guys with some rough idea on drive coil performance. But any drive coil can do that. But now, put a torque meter on your wheel and you will see how well it can really push to do some real work.

I do not wish my post to sound like I am scolding anyone. It is just that when I see guys that want to learn but are just turning around in circles (Hmmmm sounds familiar), I get sort of edgy and it may reflect in my wording things but there is no intention here to demean anyone since I hold you guys to the highest esteem for getting this far and most of all for sharing your experiences, most of which I can say were predictable but confirming. There are many more factors to consider on these wheels but at this stage there is no point to go there if the question - What is the best drive coil method, is not answered. Once you know that, then you can start working on the best gen coils, including cascading coils. But until then, what is the point in trying to see how far the ball goes if you don't know how best to kick.

A good old passed @member named @JackH made some very crazy motor magnet designs and he had confirmed OU, but all through his works, he had his pony brake to test the actual torque production. Torque is torque. All wheels develop torque and 1 hp equals 746 watts of energy. That is where all including Romero have to play the game no matter how well your gen coils are designed. If you can develop one HP with less then 746 watts of input energy, you are a winner already.

wattsup

PS: Sorry for long post.

I am still very much working on my motor.
I have been busy making modifications and other pieces of equipment. I needed to change the out runner. So I when back to replacing a generator coil with a drive coil. The only problem with using a drive coil. The drive coil will not spin the motor fast enough. Also you loose one generator coil.
The out runner I was using is was too big it consumed to much current and it was to much of a brut to take measurements against. I tried a loop back from the generator COILS. Even so there was no Lenz drag at 4500 RPM there was not enough power available from the generator to match the current consumed by the out runner. I must try a smaller out runner that can do the RPM but not waste so much power. There are much smaller and motors that will show any change in drive drag. The out runner on my Muller is a much better choice, I used what I had in my parts box.

I want to try your coil wind Wattsup. I would like to see it for my self in action.
I need to make sure I understand what you mean about the winding procedure, I think I do. Is there a drawing just so I can be clear about that?

I agree we are not backing off from the research I need time to make parts.
Also have other things that need my attention. Domestic chores and so on.

This is what my motor looks like at the moment. With all the electronics.

[quantumuppercut]

I think I'm starting to see what is happening about all the speed up under load effect. I'm taking some time to gather thoughts about how this thing works. My opinion is the motor consume charge and it does not care much about voltage. If we can extract high energy from the motor in low current (less drag) and convert high voltage to high charge (more torque).

[kEhYo77]

I had the effect at 4500 rpm as well but not anymore - the motor shaft broke off today :/ I need a new out runner with a thicker axis as well, Rod. We are moving forward anyways, slowly but surely

[toranarod]

I had the effect at 4500 rpm as well but not anymore - the motor shaft broke off today :/ I need a new out runner with a thicker axis as well, Rod. We are moving forward anyways, slowly but surely

I am now using a much smaller motor. it show very clearly any change in current. this is much better.
new photos next post.

[quantumuppercut]

Hi all,

I've come up with the basic math of how we can achieve OU. The fundamental principle is we can put more momentum into the rotor than extract from it while the amount of input and output are the same.

If charge q = I x t where I = current and t = time
Then It = iT where I = input current, t = input time, i = output current, T = output time

The statement above shows conservation of charge and input = output. We extract little current for a longer period of time while put in large current over a short time.

What enable us to achieve faster rotation comes from the square term of magnetic force created by the coil.

Force is proportional to current squared.

Detailed equation: Electromagnet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

If momentum = force x time
Then the momentum ratio or COP = momentum in/ momentum out
Ft/fT = I^2t / i^2T where It = iT
I= iT/t => I^2 = (i^2)(T^2)/t^2
I^2t/i^2T = T/t = I/i
This shows the ratio or COP equals current in/ current extract. If this is correct, then it establishs the basic math of how OU can be achieve.

[Farmhand]

I hope Marius makes a video of this it looks cool.

Muller Dynamo

..

[mariuscivic]

I hope Marius makes a video of this it looks cool.

Muller Dynamo

..

Hi farmhand

I'll make a video tomorow when my Arm Dso nano should arrive

[Michelinho]

RomeroUK setup.

Hi all,

I was wondering when using the RomeroUK setup (over/under coils) if anyone tried to offset the top or bottom generator coils a few degrees to spread the break out force needed by the magnets. This would be the equivalent to using even/odd numbers of coils/magnets and possibly combine the effects.

Just an idea.

Take care all,

Michel

[Shadesz]

Hi all,

I was wondering when using the RomeroUK setup (over/under coils) if anyone tried to offset the top or bottom generator coils a few degrees to spread the break out force needed by the magnets. This would be the equivalent to using even/odd numbers of coils/magnets and possibly combine the effects.

Just an idea.

Take care all,

Michel

If I remember correctly, Romero recently said he was going to try that himself. I wonder if it will cause excessive shaking...

[toranarod]

hello Shadesz

been very quite lately on the thread.

Some times I need to work on the motors and generators and talk about them later. That,s what i have been doing.

how is your work going?

[elias]

hello Shadesz

been very quite lately on the thread.

Some times I need to work on the motors and generators and talk about them later. That,s what i have been doing.

how is your work going?

Yes, it is sometimes better doing than talking. I have been doing some experiments about this phase shift phenomenon with a push-pull circuit that I have made, It was really interesting, because I used a transformer and the secondary voltage shifted as the frequency went higher which was an indication of the delay present in the core material. I could shift it easily about 180 degree, but the problem was that it was unable to provide good amount of current in that frequency (about 90,000Hz) It could light up LEDs though while consuming less current in the input. When you shifted so that it got more than 180 degrees the output voltage started to diminish.

Lately I have been think of using a Rodin coil for this purpose, it is claimed to have much higher inductance for the same length of wire, therefore increasing the L/R ratio.

Will post some results tomorrow.

[MonsieurM]

Rod, Elias good to read you guys

I found this in one of Tesla's Patent; i don't know if it is useful, you let me know

Tesla Patent 685,012 - Means for Increasing the Intensity of Electrical Oscillations

It is well known that when electrical impulses are impressed upon a circuit adapted to oscillate freely the intensity of the oscillations developed in the same is dependent on the magnitude of its physical constants and the relation of the periods of the impressed and of the free oscillations. For the attainment of the best result it is necessary that the periods of the impressed should be the same as that of the free oscillations, under which conditions the intensity of the latter is greatest and chiefly dependent on the inductance and resistance of the circuit, being directly proportionate to the former and inversely to the latter. In order, therefore, to intensify the impulses or oscillations excited in the circuit—in other words, to produce the greatest rise of current or electrical pressure in the same—it is desirable to make its inductance as large and its resistance as small as practicable. Having this end in view I have devised and used conductors of special forms and of relatively very large cross-section; but I have found that limitations exist in regard to the increase of the inductance as well as to the diminution of the resistance. This will be understood when it is borne in mind that the resonant rise of current or pressure in a freely-oscillating circuit is proportionate to the frequency of the impulses and that a large inductance in general involves a slow vibration. On the other hand, an increase of the section of the conductor with the object of reducing its resistance is, beyond a certain limit, of little or no value, principally because electrical oscillations, particularly those of high frequency, pass mainly through the superficial conducting layers, and while it is true that this drawback may be overcome in a measure by the employment of thin ribbons, tubes, or stranded cables, yet in practice other disadvantages arise, which often more than offset the gain.

It is a well-established fact that as the temperature of a metallic conductor rises its electrical resistance increases, and in recognition of this constructors of commercial electrical apparatus have heretofore resorted to many expedients for preventing the coils and other parts of the same from becoming heated when in use, but merely with a view to economizing energy and reducing the cost of construction and operation of the apparatus.

Now I have discovered that when a circuit adapted to vibrate freely is maintained at a low temperature the oscillations excited in the same are to an extraordinary degree magnified and prolonged, and I am thus enabled to produce many valuable results which have heretofore been wholly impracticable.

[Shadesz]

hello Shadesz

been very quite lately on the thread.

Some times I need to work on the motors and generators and talk about them later. That,s what i have been doing.

how is your work going?

Hey Rod,

Yeah. I figured there was enough theory thrown out there recently that we should wait a little while and test/digest it before trying to break more rules.

My build hasn't made much improvement. I still haven't been able to make a good homemade magnetite core I'm going to move on and just use laminated iron cores. Anyone have suggestions where to get them? Thanks in advance.

Hopefully your testing is going well.

[kEhYo77]

My build is moving forward as well. Tomorrow I am going to laser cut my new setup. A new out runner motor has arrived as well so in a few days I should have a video ready about my acceleration effect achievement.

[kajunkreations]

n channel mosfet

hey guys, can a N channel mosfet switch + ?